Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges • Hacker News Board

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#531

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 1:50 AM UTC

lucian1900 wrote: post #527

renewiltord wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operating in the aggregate is a fool's game. I am not the arbitrary worker who has more in common with the arbitrary worker. I am an immigrant with many immigrant friends from various countries. The arbitrary American worker wants me out and wants my friends out. He is no ally of mine. I will not stand with him. There are other bosses. They are different. And my industry is superior to most unionized industries so I…

I’m also an immigrant. It is true that the workers of rich countries are “bribed” with less exploitation to pit them against those in or from poor countries. But even their condition can be improved, so it’s possible to build solidarity. I’ve seen it myself. Ultimately, all value is created by workers and that is where profits are extracted from. If we can foster solidarity with one another, we can force bosses to ke…

Acting collectively with a guy standing with his knife poised above your back is a strategy you are welcome to. I don't think it's hard for you to see why I'm not keen on it.

But there is a simple way to solve this. If your union has, as a bylaw, "It is an immutable rule of this union that it shall never act to decrease or keep constant the number of immigrants to the USA. If this union acts in that manner, it shall be immediately dissolved and all membership rolls shall be destroyed after refunds for that month's membership fees", then I won't oppose it.

Considering that we are to act in solidarity, all I'm asking is for that measure of good faith. Just put down the knife and go stand in front. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#532

Post by ACow_Adonis » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 1:50 AM UTC

cj wrote: post #458

thelastwave wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like you have not had a lot of real job experience.

You’re right, I’ve only had a few jobs in my life. But I have hired dozens of people - everyone I’ve hired received their contracts the same day they receive an offer. Very surprised this isn’t common practice.

if it's worth anything, I'm NOT in the US, and I generally take the position that I don't even have a job until everything is signed (that is to say, sent to me, reviewed, signed, sent back and receipt acknowledged). That action would include resettlement compensation if inclusive, or at the very least I wouldn't consider seriously starting the mechanisation of moving cities until that point.

I'm pretty taken aback to learn how culturally common this behaviour seems to be in this context given the feedback...

before this thread I would have said it's a red-flag for a scam and walk away at that point...

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#533

Post by pretendscholar » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 1:52 AM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #448

MereInterest wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know the way Google does business, because you don't know the terms of the contract, then you cannot make an informed choice. You are not free to choose unless you have information to guide that choice.

You know that you will have to sign a contract. And even if you don't, they're in an "at will" state so they can fire you whenever they want (eg. on your first day) without giving a reason. You know all that going in and can choose to work in a state or country with stronger labor laws if you don't like it.

Just move to a different country bro

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#534

Post by peglasaurus » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 1:56 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #196

ChuckMcM wrote: post #191

True story, a person I know who was offered a job at Google got the employment agreement (prior to arriving which was pretty standard at the time) and read that bit about "allowing Google to protect it's IP by installing a rootkit" and they red lined it to change it "May only access Google related information and no personal information." When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would nev…

I'm not. Legal doesn't want to deal with everyone having a different employment contract. Google has always leaned towards being ok with a ton of false negatives to avoid false positives. They'd rather give up 10 good hires than make one bad one. This is just an extension of that. They don't want any exceptions and they aren't willing to make any.

Or they do in fact want that clause just as it is. By design. They simply don't want to change it.

This likely isn’t about having different contracts for different hires. Its about their intrinsic need, or more precisely, their deep requirement, to have that clause in.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#535

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #469

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

Regardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation. Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs). Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothi…

Since this article is about a union for Googlers, let's look at google specifically:

> Unions could negotiate for better parental leave

They get 14 weeks parental leave + some amount for medical leave for people who give birth [0].

> Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects

Googlers pushed back on Dragonfly[1] and got it canceled. And they pushed back on Maven[2] and got management to agree to not renew any contracts associated with it.

What exactly would change for Googlers who joined a union?

[0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/tech/google-family-leave-poli...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)#Term...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/technology/google-pentago...

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#536

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:01 AM UTC

caconym_ wrote: post #512

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you call that “collectively organizing”, I guess that proves we don’t need unions. The labor law was all that we needed and it worked as expected. Problem solved!

It's possible I don't understand your point, but it seems fairly obvious to me that doing a little bit of a thing doesn't mean you can't benefit immensely from doing more of it. Hungry? Eat a cracker and you may be less so—and it may even make a material difference to your survival in an extreme situation—but it won't replace a full meal.

I agree that we should continue doing more things like the example given, also without using a labor union.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#537

Post by morganw » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:02 AM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #489

squarefoot wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And not just two phones but two laptops as well, unless the employer forbids bringing a personal one at work (which would be a reason to dump them in my case). Leave work stuff to work hardware and never ever use company assets for anything personal. A friend of mine who works for a big multinational telco (unrelated to Google) installed an open source tool on his company laptop; when he connected back on the c…

Why would you bring a personal laptop to work?

In case you need to do something personal that can't wait until you get home. More of an issue with a longer commute. Might have to pop down to a local coffee shop or use the personal phone's hotspot to avoid using corp net.

I've had to check an account while at work to deal with my kid attempting to pay college tuition with one of my credit cards. Also looked up records so he could call the DMV to rectify something. Yeah, sometimes they're things that can wait a day, but a break from bug hunting can be nice.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#538

Post by drewbug01 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:03 AM UTC

knorker wrote: post #373

What exactly did Google do? I can't find it. Do note that one of the fired people installed an web interceptor onto all employee browsers, injecting content when certain websites were visited. Basically installed malware in the workplace. I cannot think of anything less ethical to do when gives such access. If they were my coworker I would never be able to trust them with access to anything ever again. To abuse such…

This isn’t really what happened, you know. I think this is the “game of telephone” effect in action.

It was a configuration change to an extension already installed by google onto employee computers. Hardly injecting malware.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#539

Post by rcpt » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

Also think how great it'd be if politicians were interested in things that'd help us instead of our landlords.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#540

Post by wnevets » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #501

wnevets wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you kidding? Salaries have never been higher in tech. Senior engineers make more than $400k (sometimes way more) at Google and other large companies. and they would be even higher if google and apple didn't conspire to force them lower.

No they wouldn’t. That was over a decade ago.

Then why did they take such steps to surpess wages, to save a few bucks for a quarter?