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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#521

Post by dannyw »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #41
JPKab wrote: post #3

[flagged]

I think the liberal establishment is starting to sour on their relationship with Google and other tech companies. They blame tech for Trump getting elected in the first place, and now that they see Google and Facebook have the ability to pick election winners and losers, they view them much more as a threat than they did during the Obama years. It definitely remains to be seen if Biden will start hiring up a bunch of…

Win your battles, win the war.

With Trump 2024 on the horizon, the democratic establishment has every reason to cozy up with big tech; at least for the next 4 years.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#522

Post by joshuamorton »

dylan604 wrote: post #487
joshuamorton wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's any suspicion that you may have used your personal device to communicate with co-workers, then they'll want to see it. No, they'll want to see the communication. Which the company will be compelled to provide. The device isn't relevant. (In my, admittedly limited, experience, this is how these processes actually work)

The original discovery request may be something along the lines of "please submit all communications that occurred in an electronic format via printed copies, blah blah leaglese". You then wait until the last day allowed in the discovery request, and then send over what ever print outs you have decided to release. If opposing counsel feels you've left something out (intentionally or otherwise), they can/will go to a…

> If opposing counsel feels you've left something out

No, this isn't correct. If opposing counsel has evidence[0] that the personal devices have relevant communications not already provided, they can file for a subpoena to have you turn over personal electronic devices. Your counsel can file a counter-motion, and you'll probably have a hearing.

No where will there be a warrant, unless you're in criminal proceedings.

Like I said already: as far as I know, litigation holds and discovery are fairly common, and what you're describing is not. To clarify, this is all assuming you use a work profile and a personal profile.

[0]: I don't necessarily mean evidence in the legal standard, but they need some basis for this. "A feeling" isn't enough.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#523

Post by dleslie »

geofft wrote: post #419
MereInterest wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it great when even something as huge and life-changing as a job is subject to a contract of adhesion with no negotiation allowed? I'm sure glad to live in such a free country with great worker rights. (Sarcasm intended.)

Here's my question for everyone on this thread: what are you going to do about it? My rough guesses of what you could do: - unionize your shop / commit to working at unionized shops (addresses the power imbalance between individual employees and the employer by treating employees as a group) - use the power you have as an employee to drive change at your workplace, if you're one of those employees who is well-treated…

As tech workers, likely making American wages, many of the folks here would be better served paying a congressperson and joining a PAC than they would be by paying union dues.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#524

Post by renewiltord »

vlovich123 wrote: post #429
ahelwer wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employee I might have $100k in MSFT stock after five years. Those buybacks gave me what, a few hundred/thousand bucks at most? Come on. For such a supposed math-literate profession this objection is weirdly common. If you get cash you can turn around and buy company stock. Nobody is stopping you. Unions would also certainly see the value in employee ownership of stock, which broadly aligns with ideas of workers…

People also seem to think that RSU grants somehow appreciate in value before they vest. They do not. If you sign for 400k of RSUs over 4 years with a 1 year cliff and the stock rockets up 2x just before your first vest and then plateaus, you’re still getting only 400k. There’s literally no difference to a regular salary except you get paid out twice and it makes taxes more annoying because you have to pay estimated t…

> People also seem to think that RSU grants somehow appreciate in value before they vest. They do not. If you sign for 400k of RSUs over 4 years with a 1 year cliff and the stock rockets up 2x just before your first vest and then plateaus, you’re still getting only 400k.

This happens at some places and happens based on number of RSUs at other places.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#525

Post by perryizgr8 »

If I intentionally used my discretion as a developer to check in code that works against my employer, I'd be fired faster than you could say "unionization". I think it is a credible goal to inform people about their rights, but there has got to be a better way.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#526

Post by jjcon »

brundolf wrote: post #469
black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

Regardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation. Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs). Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothi…

>Organization is about changing a power balance; it's not just about money.

Maybe I fundamentally misunderstand unions having only been in one for a short amount of time but I didn't feel any more empowered by having a union. It was a bunch of union fat cats arguing with corporate fat cats and all in all it just made the work more insufferable.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#527

Post by lucian1900 »

renewiltord wrote: post #509
lucian1900 wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there are other bosses available. If they are in any way different. If you’re lucky to stand out. In practice, you’re far more likely to agree with fellow workers than with bosses. You have material interests largely in common, not largely opposed. That’s why unionised workplaces and industries have measurably better pay and conditions.

Operating in the aggregate is a fool's game. I am not the arbitrary worker who has more in common with the arbitrary worker. I am an immigrant with many immigrant friends from various countries. The arbitrary American worker wants me out and wants my friends out. He is no ally of mine. I will not stand with him. There are other bosses. They are different. And my industry is superior to most unionized industries so I…

I’m also an immigrant.

It is true that the workers of rich countries are “bribed” with less exploitation to pit them against those in or from poor countries. But even their condition can be improved, so it’s possible to build solidarity. I’ve seen it myself.

Ultimately, all value is created by workers and that is where profits are extracted from. If we can foster solidarity with one another, we can force bosses to keep less of our labour as profits.

It’s individualism that is foolish, since it lets the bosses divide us. Collective action is much more effective.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#528

Post by inetknght »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #434
inetknght wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work profile is supposed to solve that problem: you only add your corp account and install corp apps in work profile Wait until your personal phone, with its work profile, comes into scope of a work-related deposition. You'll find just how paper thin that argument is.

Does this apply to just having Slack on your phone?

Slack records a device id when you log in -- have you noticed that you get a notification saying that you've logged in from that device? And a lawyer won't care that it's your personal device. They'll want to see it because it shows up in an audit log from your employer. They'll want to check: have you saved any work content? Have you copy/pasted work messages elsewhere? Just about anything is fair game once the device is identified.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#529

Post by brundolf »

jjcon wrote: post #526
brundolf wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation. Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs). Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothi…

>Organization is about changing a power balance; it's not just about money. Maybe I fundamentally misunderstand unions having only been in one for a short amount of time but I didn't feel any more empowered by having a union. It was a bunch of union fat cats arguing with corporate fat cats and all in all it just made the work more insufferable.

I've heard widely varying things about different individual unions. But I think this is true of any power structure: whenever power is acquired, it can be abused by the few - be they politicians or CEOs or union leaders - or it can be held onto by the many and used for the general improvement of circumstances. There's always the risk of corruption. But speaking very broadly, the higher the number of different powerful parties competing with each other, the better.

In literal terms: I'd tend to think having union fat cats arguing with corporate fat cats is better than having only corporate fat cats, who are free to do whatever they please.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#530

Post by lacker »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #191

True story, a person I know who was offered a job at Google got the employment agreement (prior to arriving which was pretty standard at the time) and read that bit about "allowing Google to protect it's IP by installing a rootkit" and they red lined it to change it "May only access Google related information and no personal information." When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would nev…

It’s a shame they didn’t figure something practical out! For me, I didn’t want Facebook to have access to my phone, so I just used my personal phone for personal issues instead of using my corporate phone for everything in my life. That worked fine, I just had to pay for my own phone.
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