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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#101

Post by teeray »

izacus wrote: post #92
inetknght wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's not a big deal... until it is. Like when your boss/coworker gets involved in a work dispute and you get dragged into a deposition.

You misunderstood - Android Work profile doesn't allow the employer to access any of your personal information. It keeps work and personal things separate by a wall. iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask.

I would still be concerned that laws are still focused on physical things. Even if there’s a personal / work virtual barrier, I wouldn’t want the presence of work information anywhere on a personal device transmuting that device into a work device in the eyes of the law.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#102

Post by GavinMcG »

jordache wrote: post #70

Man! What did she expect, treading into unionization topics on company systems?

"What did they expect" is a knee-jerk response to a lot of things that completely avoids thinking about who is responsible for what.

I suspect you meant it sarcastically, here, but a lot of people don't. I think it leads to a sort of moral degradation, where wrongdoing is "expected" or "normal" and so not worth pushing back against.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#103

Post by draw_down »

ditonal wrote: post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

Not only they can see it all, they can choose to wipe it all at any time. Some goofball can lose their laptop in a coffee shop and corporate decides better safe than sorry, and then oops there goes all your pictures of your baby. Or your blood sugar measurements, or whatever else.

You're absolutely correct- any device that work expects you to do work on, should be bought and paid for by them.

(And I'm sorry, but "profiles" do not cut the mustard.)

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#104

Post by eschneider »

inetknght wrote: post #85
fishywang wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Android, the work profile is supposed to solve that problem: you only add your corp account and install corp apps in work profile, and it's (at least supposed to be) isolated from your personal, default profile on your phone. This is even explicitly stated in work profile enabling flow. The spy activities described in the article is not about actual personal activities on the phone. One is looking at other's corp…

> the work profile is supposed to solve that problem: you only add your corp account and install corp apps in work profile Wait until your personal phone, with its work profile, comes into scope of a work-related deposition. You'll find just how paper thin that argument is.

Yeah, you haven't lived until you've had all your work email subpoenaed. Been there, done that.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#105

Post by Jotra7 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #78
JeremyBanks wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair perspective, but that's not applicable here. The punishment isn't because of how much she violated the policies, it's to send a message. At Google, someone once disruptively modified the root permissions for the entire company-wide monorepo to show off that the permissions scheme was fallible. They were left off with a verbal warning, even though on paper they massively abused their position, and could…

> That's a fair perspective, but that's not applicable here. It's exactly applicable. If you violate say, finance reporting laws (KYC) then you've violated finance reporting laws. If you've added unauthorized code to an internal tool, well, you've added unauthorized code to an internal tool. And had it been part of a security disclosure, well, that might be different (did they try other disclosure avenues?), but push…

Saying people have a right to organize is not political speech if you aren't a reactionary.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#106

Post by neura »

observr9 wrote: post #90
Macha wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my last two employers have been similar. And given the requirements, both provide company phones. I run into coworkers who then decide to use the company phone as their only phone, because the company phone is usually the top of the line iPhone or Samsung Galaxy replaced every 2 years when their personal phone otherwise is some mid range Android or 2+ year old iPhone. Even when pointed out that the company can w…

> Even when pointed out that the company can wipe it when they leave If someone intends to leave, they can first revoke the company's access to their phone.

Yeah, this is exactly the opposite of reality. It is not "company's access to their phone", it is "company's control of their phone". I think you misunderstand what's being required of many people in exchange for access corporate information from their phone.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#107

Post by whimsicalism »

manfredo wrote: post #56
sumeno wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Googlers have the right to participate in protected concerted activities" is not a personal political opinion, it is the law.

Yes, you have a right to participate in unionization and politics. But you don't have a right to alter company software to spread your political message. There's a big difference between holding a "Vote X" sign on a street corner on your own time, and using your position as a developer to put up "Vote X" signs on your company's website.

> using your position as a developer to put up "Vote X" signs on your company's website.

To state the law* for internal users who visit one specific website

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#108

Post by judge2020 »

izacus wrote: post #92
inetknght wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's not a big deal... until it is. Like when your boss/coworker gets involved in a work dispute and you get dragged into a deposition.

You misunderstood - Android Work profile doesn't allow the employer to access any of your personal information. It keeps work and personal things separate by a wall. iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask.

> iOS doesn't allow that however - there the Apple will give everything over to employer if they so ask.

Regular MDM used to do that (just as Android used to do that), but Apple has been working on the same "wall" to separate work and personal info.

https://www.apple.com/business/docs/resources/Managing_Devic...

https://simplemdm.com/apple-user-enrollment/

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#109

Post by whimsicalism »

entangledqubit wrote: post #83
esrauch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's so black and white: the "security tool" is a chrome extension for sending notices to employees about the site they are visiting. An analogous situation seems like if the company had a big cork board for safety/security messages and someone posted a paper with that sentence on it next to something the company posted that was perceived as anti-union. It's unclear to me if that other scenario is prote…

I don't think the cork board analogy really works here. This sounds like a person (ab)used their position and access to the backend of a security tool (Chrome extension or not) to broadcast a non-security related message. I think we can generally agree that if they were on a team maintaining protocol buffers and they baked an unnecessary ignored message into the encoded stream (about whatever) there should be repercu…

> broadcast a non-security related message.

I don't think it was broadcast, it was displayed if one particular website was visited. That seems very analogous to permitted organizing activities such as using your employers email system to organize or posting on a cork board.

> they baked an unnecessary ignored message into the encoded stream (about whatever) there should be repercussions for lack of good judgement.

Would you be fired? I'm not so sure. It is pretty obvious that this firing was not unrelated to the messaging.

I'm glad that the very conservative interpretation of labor law that most on HN seem to believe is not the reality of labor law in the US, although more should still be done.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#110

Post by lambda_obrien »

neura wrote: post #100
alistairSH wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm old too. I used to keep work email and calendar on my personal phone. A few years later, I disabled the email because it distracted from life. I leave the calendar simply to let me know when I have an early meeting (my day normally begins at 9, but work with teams in India, so occasionally have earlier meetings).

That's my point of view. I definitely want the information available on my phone, but I never want it to interrupt me. Even if I get a slack message during the day, for example. To me, part of getting older is the more frequent "was that meeting tomorrow morning at the crack of dawn or the day after tomorrow..." and I don't want to go check my laptop. ;)

I don't even have my full calendar on my personal phone, I just share the "busy" status calendar as a public calendar then subscribe to it on my phone. I can see when my first meeting is, but nothing else!
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