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Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

bbc.com

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Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#141

Post by SifJar »

fabian2k wrote: post #57
waihtis wrote: post #20

Not sure why the posts asking for vaccine risks are getting downvoted. Pandemrix, the vaccine for swine flu, caused a notable amount of narcolepsy cases in recipients here in FIN (notable here meaning the amount of yearly cases spiked by 3-4x) and as with anything that's taken quick to market there has to be some risk of overlooking some tail events somewhere. It's not an anti-vaccine attitude, just healthy skepticis…

You have to compare the risks to the risks of the disease and the likelyhood of contracting that disease. And for COVID-19 the risks are very high. It doesn't make much sense to me to trade the very high known risks of COVID-19 against the relatively low risk of rare side effects in a vaccine. These vaccines have been tested in ~40,000 people each, so we do know quite a bit about their safety. The fatality rate of CO…

> These vaccines have been tested in ~40,000 people each, so we do know quite a bit about their safety.

We know quite a bit about their short term safety. It's impossible to know for sure if there is any long term side effect. But that is probably a risk we have to take to get past the immediate threat of covid-19.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#142

Post by Slartie »

_Microft wrote: post #5

How did they approve it that fast? Is the approval process so different and so much more efficient than the one in the EU or USA? Was it extremely rushed to make sure to get doses before they have to compete with other countries for limited supply? I'm pretty curious now. Let's hope for the best, i.e. a good vaccine, a good process and no trust problems, the latter because at least it feels rushed.

Generally approval of this is fast-tracked everywhere, but the UK being first is a political marketing stunt in my opinion.

The UK government is in dire need to demonstrate positive aspects of leaving the EU, and being able to independently greenlight this vaccine first is one particularly well suited for PR. The Brits love their NHS system and healthcare in general, so hitting it home on that turf resonates with them.

Ceasing this opportunity is especially important because all the other aspects of Brexit are just about to hurt the Brits big time next year, with the EU transitional period running out at the end of this year, with effectively no trade deal whatsoever in place to replace it, and Trump having been thrown out of office and most of the British prime ministers' hopes for an advantageous and quick trade deal with the US being dumped together with him.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#143

Post by DanBC »

apsec112 wrote: post #107
DanBC wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developed country with great logistics. Please don't under-estimate our ability to fuck this up, probably by giving the distribution contracts to a crony.

I'm sure the UK is in the top twenty countries in the world for logistics infrastructure. It's easy to read news stories about your country messing things up, and quietly not read foreign-language media about poorer countries messing things up a lot more by comparison, and get a biased perspective.

We had excellent Public Health test and trace departments who had a wealth of experience of tracing people for sexual health purposes. But we still chose to give the contract to Dido Harding despite her poor record at NHS Improvement.

And I saw what happened to NHS Logistics, which was one bit of the NHS that wasn't losing money. It was running well. It was privatised to DHL in 2006 for purely ideological reasons, and then for several years was terrible. Ten years later, after Lord Carter's report into efficiency and productivity, we set up a new org called NHS Supply Chain and in effect re-nationalised it by giving the responsibility to a company which is owned by the Secretary of State for the Department for Health and Social Care. I don't think anyone has really learned any lessons from that.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#144

Post by 7952 »

WanderPanda wrote: post #36
jakozaur wrote: post #19

In terms of rollout. UK is the ideal country to be the first: 1. Heavily impacted by Covid-19. 2. Centralised health care system makes it easier to compare results and efficiency. E.g. it's UK which figured out that dexamethasone is efficient against Covid https://www.who.int/news/item/16-06-2020-who-welcomes-prelim... 3. Developed country with great logistics.

Happy beta testing to all Brits then!

Someone has to be. Happy for it to be me.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#145

Post by aemreunal »

Reason077 wrote: post #80
YaarPodshipnik wrote: post #47

I had COVID-19 early in the year, and so did my Wife (not sure about my Daughter, harder to tell with kids). I would really like to know whether I should get the vaccine or not? All the info that's out there says that immunity to C19 is temporary, so a vaccine after having gone through it doesn't seem redundant. Does anyone know if there's been any research on effects of the vaccine on the people who got C19 and reco…

Having had Covid-19 should confer at least as much immunity as a vaccine does. It's possible that a vaccine could act as a "booster" to extend immunity, but I don't think there's any data on that. Your fears about "cytokine storm possibility as a reaction to vaccine" are unfounded. These vaccines have been tested on tens of thousands of trial participants.

> Having had Covid-19 should confer at least as much immunity as a vaccine does.

[If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly] Not necessarily. There are vaccines, such as those for HPV and Tetanus that provide better immunity than the natural immunity provided by having and surviving the illness [1].

I don't recall reading any research on the immunity provided between a vaccine and the illness on COVID-19, so I don't know whether this could be such a case.

[1]: https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-cent...

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#146

Post by tialaramex »

apsec112 wrote: post #107
DanBC wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developed country with great logistics. Please don't under-estimate our ability to fuck this up, probably by giving the distribution contracts to a crony.

I'm sure the UK is in the top twenty countries in the world for logistics infrastructure. It's easy to read news stories about your country messing things up, and quietly not read foreign-language media about poorer countries messing things up a lot more by comparison, and get a biased perspective.

Sure, but the political party currently in government (and the particular people from that party in government) have shown great inclination to put "Favour for an old friend" above "This makes sense to not kill thousands of people" in their priorities.

The UK has universal healthcare so the infrastructure and public understanding are in place to actually do the vaccination programme per se. I have every confidence that the NHS medics will do their part efficiently as they do every year for the Flu shot I get, but getting frozen vaccine delivered to local NHS clinics is a logistics problem and an opportunity for somebody's wife's best friend's ex-boyfriend to be given a £100M contract even though he has no relevant experience and is obviously the wrong choice.

Six months later, with headlines about vaccine shipments defrosting abandoned in carparks miles from their intended destination and tens of thousands more dead the government will announce it had a brain wave, the Army (always the people drafted in when policy has failed) will now deliver vaccines. Don't worry about the money which has meanwhile mysteriously increased to £250M due to "performance payments" which somehow didn't involve performance but did involve payments - that's water under the bridge, can't be helped ...

Remember when we were going to do a snap Brexit, no transition, just drop dead one day suddenly? Basically the same group of fools paid people with no relevant experience and no ships to provide last minute ferry services. How do you provide ferry services with no ships? You don't, you just pocket the cash.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#147

Post by bawolff »

PureParadigm wrote: post #123
alibarber wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA itself isn't doing the protection - it's training your immune system to do that for you (in a safe way).

So its effect on the immune system lasts even after it's gone. So if it were to cause any problems (in the immune system, for example), those could also persist after the mRNA is gone. So how exactly is this line of reasoning reassuring?

Mostly because that's also how all other vaccines work, going back 200 years. Its really only the mRNA part that's new.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#148

Post by wfn »

PureParadigm wrote: post #123
alibarber wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA itself isn't doing the protection - it's training your immune system to do that for you (in a safe way).

So its effect on the immune system lasts even after it's gone. So if it were to cause any problems (in the immune system, for example), those could also persist after the mRNA is gone. So how exactly is this line of reasoning reassuring?

> So its effect on the immune system lasts even after it's gone.

The general principle is the same as for most vaccines: make the body generate its own antibodies (and/or T cells) for the virus in question. So in that sense of course its effect is long term, just like when you get sick with some virus and your body develops antibodies for it - the virus itself is gone, but the effect on the immune system is long-lasting.

From an FT article:

> Conventional vaccines administer an inactivated virus, or proteins from that virus, into the body to trigger an immune response, which can prevent subsequent infection.

> In contrast, mRNA technology — originally developed as a cancer therapy — injects genetic instructions into the body that tell cells to make viral proteins that prime the immune system. Although mRNA vaccines had been under development for several years for viruses including influenza, cytomegalovirus, HIV, rabies and Zika, the arrival of Covid-19 turbocharged the process.

- https://www.ft.com/content/74e41528-80c3-4b0f-b343-be43d90f0...

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#149

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

waihtis wrote: post #134
Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could it possibly empower anti vaxxers to say to trust healthcare professionals, doctors and the worlds leading security and safety experts?

I think anti-vaxx and other fringe groups are more driven by distrust in society, and by denying discussion to be had in the first place will further build anti-societal silos. It's a difficult problem, because inevitably there will be harm initially if you allow free discussion. But over time the harm will be less in comparison to complete shutdown of any public conversation about the vaccines. If the anti-vaxxers d…

There are several problems with that, and they can be seen online already.

1) It is much easier to spread misinformation than to collect facts and spread real data

2) Mistrust is insidious and spreads, allowing anti-vaxers then goes into other forms of anti institutional ideologies.

3) Herd immunity. If some kid has leukimia and cannot get vaccinated, he survives thanks to everyone else being vaccinated. Some 30 year old reactionary being an anti-vaxxer and getting covid and surviving it would be ok if he was not a vector of infection to the most vulnerable in society.

So in my opinion teaching people basic scientific literacy (so they can check primary sources like published research), and fostering scientific respect and trust would do us wonders as a society. We put a man on the moon, and reduced child mortality by 90% by trusting science, why allow people who think the theory of gravity is "just a theory" spread their thoughts.

Re: Pfizer Covid vaccine approved for use next week in UK

#150

Post by string »

EliRivers wrote: post #130
apsec112 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the UK is in the top twenty countries in the world for logistics infrastructure. It's easy to read news stories about your country messing things up, and quietly not read foreign-language media about poorer countries messing things up a lot more by comparison, and get a biased perspective.

The infrastructure, absolutely. A serious road, rail and air network, lots of companies with lots of experience and all the right gear and so on. Where we fuck up is in the competency of the people in charge of awarding contracts. Be it Grayling giving millions of pounds to a ferry company with no ferries owned or leased, or indeed any experience at all with ferries (and, wonderfully, with a T&Cs on their website cop…

I know it's guaranteed internet points to deride the current government, and the ferry thing is/was despicable, but I think it's highly unlikely they're going to put KFC in charge of logistical operations for the vaccine rollout.
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