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Ethereum 2.0 launches

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#541

Post by woah »

ishishkin wrote: post #536
woah wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely untrue and has been since 2014. The solution is that validators are "slashed" and lose their tokens if they have been found to sign two blocks at the same height.

What has happened in 2014? Is that a time when brain-washing campaign in crypto-media has been started? "Slashing" is not a solution to this problem.

Vitalik Buterin came up with a solution for the nothing-at-stake problem: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/01/15/slasher-a-punitive-proo...

Also, I'm not sure why you and the other commenter are so argumentative about this. There are several PoS networks out there such as Cosmos, Tezos, etc, holding more than a billion dollars. If there was an issue, someone would have hacked them by now.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#542

Post by arcticbull »

pfundstein wrote: post #497
JohnTHaller wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'm in the same boat. I have the full Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Dogecoin core clients installed and with a full blockchain on my PC. With Ethereum, I always found the base client much buggier than the others (browser-based apps do that). And now, it's just 'pick one of these 24 random wallets'. Really? I went from mining Ethereum and even releasing a minimal mining GUI for folks who wanted to support PortableA…

Sorry for the tangent but isn't litecoin and dogecoin one and the same now? Why separate clients?

Nope one was started as a joke and the other one, the founder sold literally his entire holdings at the top of the market for $600/LTC, 8x current price (and ran away to an island somewhere, I assume) years ago, leaving the foundation on the brink of bankruptcy - the bankruptcy claim which to be fair they denied in 2019. Smart man!

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#543

Post by capnorange »

tylersmith wrote: post #362
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin [..] > Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. > Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. This is just wrong. If the award available to miners decreases due to lack of inflation they will use less power…

You're just explaining the steps of the parent's scenario. The chain must keep accumulating work faster than any adversary could keep up with or everyone's money is at risk because the state never fully finalizes.

everyone's money is not at risk -- only the people who are transacting. There are also tools to know a estimate a good number of confirmations needed.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#544

Post by capnorange »

woah wrote: post #430
nikolay wrote: post #330

One question - why didn't Bitcoin drop to zero? I know, VHS survive and Betamax didn't, but unlike Betamax, Ethereum is pretty popular for everything, not just for low-class commodity speculation.

There still isn't a lot of real-world use of crypto. Even all the DeFi stuff on Ethereum, while innovative, is derivatives on speculative crypto assets. As long as speculation is the main thing going on in crypto, BTC is king, since it is purely speculative, has the best name recognition, and doesn't try to hide that fact.

how about getting a higher interest on your savings account using defi on your usdc? Isn't this a real world use case?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#545

Post by Taek »

pfundstein wrote: post #497
JohnTHaller wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'm in the same boat. I have the full Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Dogecoin core clients installed and with a full blockchain on my PC. With Ethereum, I always found the base client much buggier than the others (browser-based apps do that). And now, it's just 'pick one of these 24 random wallets'. Really? I went from mining Ethereum and even releasing a minimal mining GUI for folks who wanted to support PortableA…

Sorry for the tangent but isn't litecoin and dogecoin one and the same now? Why separate clients?

They use the same mining hardware, but they are not the same chain.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#546

Post by capnorange »

louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

Maybe it's not useful to you, maybe if you kept an open mind you could find some use!

1. There is $14.17B of value locked in DeFi, so it's clearly useful to someone(and scams don't account for the majority of it).

2. USD is not my primary currency, I'm fortunate my employer agrees to pay me in USDC. The fees are usually around $1.5, previously when I used PayPal fees used to be 5.5% deducted from my side.

3. I keep most of my money in USD, which earns interest around 8% APY monthly on yearn.finance/earn. Contrast with the savings account on my bank which gives me 3%.

I don't trade, I don't speculate. I own a small amount of ETH to pay for fees. If you are from TradeFi you will find it much more useful!

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#547

Post by nootropicat »

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #407
nootropicat wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security deposits of attackers in ethereum are slashed, up to 100%, in case of an attack. The value at stake can potentially grow into hundreds of billions, much more than any PoW chain can hope to accumulate in mining revenues in its entire existence. Last but not least, there's no way to delete PoW attacker's gpus, but hostile stake is always going to be slashed. Asic pow chain can be forked - once - to a gpu pow,…

> Security deposits of attackers in ethereum are slashed, up to 100%, in case of an attack. What defends against the attacker configuring his nodes to just not relay the blocks which slash his deposits, by having a majority in the network connectivity, and thereby convincing victim nodes that he in fact is the victim of false slashing because the victims will only discover the slash-claims much after the attackers "v…

If the attacker has 2/3 of the entire stake then the only option is to manually coordinate a fork to a chain without his censorship, allowing protocol penalties to run its course. A direct analogue of an asic PoW fork in case of a sustained attack.

>and thereby convincing victim nodes that he in fact is the victim of false slashing because the victims will only discover the slash-claims much after the attackers "valid" blocks?

It's not possible for 'false slashing' to occur, because slashing requires presenting conflicting votes.

>Isn't the slashing mechanism also reliant upon mere hope that the network topology randomly happens to be in favor of non-malicious peers?

topology doesn't matter in this case, 2/3+ consensus is asynchronous. 2/3 of stake is required to finalize blocks, so the attacker would finalize his own chain without slashing.

There are some ideas about 99+% proof consensus which rely on topology and nodes being online (which means they can observe that censorship is happening) but it's not currently implemented. Eventually I expect it to happen, making attacks a practical impossibility, by coupling asynchronous 2/3+ consensus guarantee with synchronous 99+% guarantee, effectively automatically coordinating anti-censorship forks.

https://vitalik.ca/general/2018/08/07/99_fault_tolerant.html

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#548

Post by kristianov »

kgin wrote: post #503
dmitriid wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum is also built on the assumption that: - people aren't assholes - all involved parties can audit blockchain transactions - all involved parties are programmers and can audit a contract written in an esoteric programming language - all involved parties voluntarily agree to be bound by these contracts despite the fact there's no way they can be enforced

> all involved parties voluntarily agree to be bound by these contracts despite the fact there's no way they can be enforced Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think ETH contracts count on humans doing anything.

All useful contracts in real world are dependent on humans, unless the machines can make and deliver a pizza, with extra cheese and no pineapples.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#549

Post by hardwaresofton »

DennisP wrote: post #213
hardwaresofton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any idea on the increase in transactions per second/month/some time period? The things that have stopped me from getting into btc/eth are: - scaling issues (it can't be used as a currency if this isn't fixed) - power issues (would be nice if we didn't create a huge pointless energy sink if we could avoid it) - the amount of footguns in ethereum (I think the language is too permissive) It looks like this solves at lea…

There are basically two big things in Ethereum's scaling roadmap. One is sharding, so each node only has to process a fraction of all transactions. Initially there will be 64 shards, but it's designed to allow up to 1024. As individual nodes get more powerful, both the number of shards and the amount processed by each shard increases, for quadratic scaling. The other part, which is on Ethereum mainnet already, is a l…

Thanks for the summary of the current state of the art -- last I looked at this sharding/federated-chain stuff was still only research grade for bitcoin as a whole. If Ethereum is ready to productize that's amazing news.

Anything more than ~3000 tx/sec will be a game changer and maybe ethereum will finally deliver on the promise of usability as currency.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#550

Post by hardwaresofton »

seibelj wrote: post #47
hardwaresofton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any idea on the increase in transactions per second/month/some time period? The things that have stopped me from getting into btc/eth are: - scaling issues (it can't be used as a currency if this isn't fixed) - power issues (would be nice if we didn't create a huge pointless energy sink if we could avoid it) - the amount of footguns in ethereum (I think the language is too permissive) It looks like this solves at lea…

At least 1000 transactions per second if not more. In terms of language security, it is possible to use a verified subset of the language in order to avoid bugs, as you can with any Turing-complete language. Few currently do, however.

Thanks -- yeah the language thing I guess is much harder to change, but I can protect from that by just sticking to relatively simple transactions, or maybe if some sort of professional review/audit agency would spring up...
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