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Ethereum 2.0 launches

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Bitcoin advocate, I just recognize the value the invention provided and I recognize that this whole cryptocurrency space relies on it being successful for long enough for anything else usurp it. If Bitcoin got hacked right now, everything crashes with it. Compared to Bitcoin, there are consensus mechanisms that are a lot faster (3 orders of magnitude), cheaper (almost free transaction cost), near instant fi…

> there are consensus mechanisms that are a lot faster (3 orders of magnitude) Correct me if I'm wrong, but this still falls far short of like, VISA.

You're not wrong :-D

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#512
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They trade a token, sometimes called a stablecoin, that represent BTC as its underlying value. Primarily two extremes for how this is done: Centralized, like WBTC ( https://coinlist.co/help/what-is-wrapped-bitcoin-wbtc ), and decentralized, like tBTC ( https://defirate.com/tbtc/ )

Besides the extremes, there's the pragmatic in the middle - interoperability in general. RenVM supports Bitcoin and many other coins on multiple hosts, not just Ethereum (eg. Polkadot): https://renproject.io https://mainnet.renproject.io

I'm not convinced RenVM is really in the middle in its current state. Currently the core team holds all of the keys for the over $300M in Bitcoin stored by their project [0]. I'd take wbtc, which is held by a consortium of well known custodians in the space over that any day.

[0] https://www.theblockcrypto.com/daily/76787/ren-bitcoin-walle...

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#513
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can this be done non-custodially? i.e. can an ETH holder somehow delegate a pool to be able to stake with that ETH but not spend it?

No or people could use that to bypass slashing.

Oooh, gonna be some fun trust scams in PoS world :-D

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#514
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin might fall into obsolescence, but it won’t be because it is mined. It simply isn’t as useful as ETH. I firmly believe that DeFi, which is based upon ETH’s smart contracts and distributed EVM concept, is the future of the finance and investing universe, even with its many issues today. Flash loans/minting, for example, have turned the markets into the ultimate meritocracy. Anyone - rich or poor - can access up…

The false premise you're using is that smart contracts provide more utility than sound economic policy does.

So what happens after Ethereum finishes migrating to proof of stake and has lower inflation than Bitcoin?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#515

One thing I haven't been able to figure out about proof of stake is this: if one entity somehow manages to control over half to the total ETH tokens, does this enable an attack analogous to bitcoin's 51% problem (which happens when one miner controls over half of the network's raw cpu power)?

Yes. But thats the point of PoS. Why would someone who owns >50% of something want to destroy it? Literally hurting yourself more just to hurt others a lesser amount.

Someone (very rich) could bet even more money on that thing falling..?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#516

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

Hi, here is most simple explanation what it does: Simple solution for illegal/semi-legal activities. Think some goods, money laundering (try to transfer money to North Korea, Iran) even to your relative. Also, there are some privacy minded individuals as well who would like to pay for things like VPN, domains, servers who don't want to get their account tied to theirs credit card. Speaking of Ethereum, think of it li…

Yes, buying weed and VPN accounts is the good use of censorship-resistant money. Unfortunately there's also the bad uses like, you know, any kind of extortion (especially ransomware), fraud, scams.. oh you even mentioned the scams! :)

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#517
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false premise you're using is that smart contracts provide more utility than sound economic policy does.

So what happens after Ethereum finishes migrating to proof of stake and has lower inflation than Bitcoin?

The problem is not what the inflation rate is at any given moment, but that it can be changed so easily, like the very switch to ETH 2 is an example of.

The inflation curve in Bitcoin is considered sacred. In Ethereum, it's developer whim and EIP approval.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can just use renewable energy sources long term. Really don't understand the obsession some people have with the energy requirements of bitcoin mining - please compare these with the energy requirements of the financial systems it replaces. Bitcoin solves the need for third parties in the financial system. That's it, it's not meant to be some eco currency - never was. Where's the validation that the current financ…

Why is POS a joke?

https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-pr...

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#519
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's very short sighted and wrong: their whole analysis from 2016 depend on a high variance of rewards, which completely ignores the reality of 2017 clogged mempool where miners chose the highest tx fee. Selfish mining is possible, at least for a short period of a time, but sunk costs are eventually sunk costs and you compete for the next block.

Why would mining be anything but selfish? The only reason miners are operating is because they expect a reward that is greater than their expenses. That means block rewards plus TX fees need to be greater than the cost of running the network. Block rewards are effectively a tax on existing holders through inflation of supply, but that will go to zero in the long run. As the rewards decreases, TX fees will need to inc…

I think you do not understand "selfish mining": it's a technical term for a miner trying to take the lead over the existing blockchain, but only in some very specific cases outside normal mining. It's predicted by game theory - google for it, it's interesting!

The rest of your analysis is correct: as rewards decrease, TX fees may increase. You can also see that due to competition for the limited tps, as seen in 2017.

But this is also exactly why the scenario discussed in the paper is implausible: miners get to pick the transactions with the highest fees for inclusion in the next block. If your transaction is not urgent, you pay the minimum and wait. Eventually, it will be processed - if the expected delay (given the mempool) is not to your liking, you can update the fee with RBF.

But again, it means there will be little variance - just a smooth adjustment, meaning the required condition this whole paper is based on is dead wrong.

About the economic model breaking down, you make 2 mistakes: 1) you fail to account for difficulty adjustments made just for this situation, but even people who do often forgot 2) when revenue no longer covers costs (as say for a factory), the company doesn't immediately give up and fire everybody.

It's industrial organization 101, and due to the difference between short term and long term.

Of course, there is less friction and fewer rigidities with software, and mining equipment could be deployed differently if it was still CPUs or GPUs.

But the genius of ASICs having no alternative use means it can't happen (except maybe switching to another coin with the same algorithm)

Overall, regardless of the situation and what you throw at it, there's no situation I can see where the economic model break - except maybe if miners are tracked and executed on sight by the army? But even then, all it would do is move the mining to another country - or lead to bribes!

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#520
post #465
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In crypto there's this concept of delegation and also pooling. This allows folks with smaller holdings to be exposed to the benefits of staking.

Can this be done non-custodially? i.e. can an ETH holder somehow delegate a pool to be able to stake with that ETH but not spend it?

Yes, take a look at Rocket Pool:

https://www.rocketpool.net/

The trick is that as the pool leader, you have to put up a 16 ETH stake and other participants pool together to make up the other 16 ETH.

If you misbehave as the pool leader, your 16 ETH is the first to get slashed.

They published a blog post this week talking about how they are pushing back their roadmap until the Eth1/Eth2 merge, though.

Their proof of concept was working great on testnets.

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