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250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

peoplesdispatch.org

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Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#31

Post by destroyHN »

nervous_ring wrote: post #20
FuckButtons wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like the time they tried to go to a cashless economy without any real alternative for the majority of the population? The main thing the bjp has as far as I can see is a violent hatred of Muslims, which in a country with the largest population of Muslims in the world is not going to end well.

We did get a strong online payment system because of it. It is bearing fruits, just not as well as we'd hoped. And yes, I'm aware of the problems it caused too. Look, I'm a strong liberal but it's hard not to dislike the Muslims if you were born before 2000 (which most of the BJP brass is). Muslims just don't assimilate well. And not their fault to a large degree, but actively protesting against raising the marriage…

> Look, I'm a strong liberal but it's hard not to dislike the Muslims if you were born before 2000 (which most of the BJP brass is). Muslims just don't assimilate well

You're not a strong liberal. You're a bigot.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#32

Post by nervous_ring »

gurleen_s wrote: post #25

My father was a farmer in Punjab. I have family at these protests right now. I can tell you that the anger is very real. Their livelihoods are being stripped away from them just so Modi’s friends can make a quick buck. I like free markets, but it should not have to come at the expense of those at the bottom of the chain.

Farmers have access to 24x7 free water and power supply (something I in the city don't get). They get access to free seeds, pesticides and unending loan waivers year after year. In exchange we get the worst air pollution in the world and these protests that harm the general populace more. So I ask you, what more do farmers want? Is asking for something in return for billions of dollars in tax too much?

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#33

Post by 0xFFFE »

Again, there is so much disinformation citing opinion pieces. Here is a link to Govt. of India Gazette notification of the Farm Bill.

http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf

TL;DR: Until now, farmers were at the mercy of middlemen to sell their produce. With the new act Farmers are free to sell it to anyone [E.g grocery chains] directly in addition to the Govt guaranteed minimum price [a.k.a MSP] So if Market price > MSP; Sell directly in the market. Else, govt will purchase the produce at a minimum guaranteed price. So in essence, govt is protecting the interests of the farmers. The current protests are an amalgamation of disgruntled middlemen who are going to lose fat profits and some political parties trying to get mileage out of it.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#34

Post by dilutedh2o »

0xFFFE wrote: post #33

Again, there is so much disinformation citing opinion pieces. Here is a link to Govt. of India Gazette notification of the Farm Bill. http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf TL;DR: Until now, farmers were at the mercy of middlemen to sell their produce. With the new act Farmers are free to sell it to anyone [E.g grocery chains] directly in addition to the Govt guaranteed minimum price [a.k.a MSP] So if M…

what about the people who don't want the market needlessly inflated by price floors?

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#35

Post by glasss »

0xFFFE wrote: post #33

Again, there is so much disinformation citing opinion pieces. Here is a link to Govt. of India Gazette notification of the Farm Bill. http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf TL;DR: Until now, farmers were at the mercy of middlemen to sell their produce. With the new act Farmers are free to sell it to anyone [E.g grocery chains] directly in addition to the Govt guaranteed minimum price [a.k.a MSP] So if M…

I'm not well versed (or even poorly versed) in agriculture economics but isn't this what the United States does to a certain degree? I know some farmers get subsidies but I'm not sure how / why.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#36

Post by puranjay »

anuraj wrote: post #29

Narendra Modi has destroyed the very idea of India and turned it into a majoriatarian fascist state. A long struggle is ahead for people of India.

My friends from the southern states call it "Northocracy". A handful of northern states - all of which perform abysmally in all development indicators - get to decide the elections and the overall direction of the country. It shouldn't be surprising that the country has started resembling these states as well.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#37

Post by claudiawerner »

disposekinetics wrote: post #17
kevingadd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are votes illegitimate because the voter is a communist? Whether someone has a right to vote in a democratic system shouldn't depend on their politics or gender or race.

Most people care about democracy not in the abstract procedural sense but because it tends to produce human rights respecting outcomes. We aren’t obligated to abstractly uphold democracy in the face of a majority holding Nazi symbols. The same logic should apply to other symbols of extreme oppression such as communist paraphernalia.

How does that work when (Marxist) communism is a democratic ideology? In fact, most communists (and some political philosophers) hold that capitalism and democracy are incompatible. Leninism is (in theory, maybe not in practice!) also democratic, and anti-Stalinist forms of communism are too.

>but because it tends to produce human rights respecting outcomes

From the communist's point of view, they agree with this - communist movements until shortly after the second world war stressed non-involvement and the illegitimacy of "bourgeois democracy". The communists contend that the mixture of capitalism and democracy does not yield human-respecting outcomes, even if they may produce outcomes that correspond to the liberal conception of human rights.

If there is no space to disagree with liberalism - from its economics (capitalism) to its conception of human freedom (the rights system and the law of the state), where does that leave us? I think it results in dogmatism and ideological conformity.

Liberalism and capitalism should be able to withstand criticism and rhetoric without banning such criticism because of the symbols used to represent it. And it really is just criticism - these people are trying to get elected.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#39

Post by puranjay »

logicuce wrote: post #28
gurleen_s wrote: post #25

My father was a farmer in Punjab. I have family at these protests right now. I can tell you that the anger is very real. Their livelihoods are being stripped away from them just so Modi’s friends can make a quick buck. I like free markets, but it should not have to come at the expense of those at the bottom of the chain.

Anger can be real, but don't know if it is informed and rational. All I hear is that it is bad, but not able to find information how. Most of the protestors don't even know the details of what is being changed. And, frankly, at this stage if you think somebody like Modi or Rahul Gandhi or Kejriwal is about helping their friends make quick buck, the story doesn't add up. In their position they would think and act for…

Objectively, it is replacing a bad system.

But the proponents of the bill place too much faith in the market. India has never had truly free markets. There is a very legitimate concern that a few big corporations will monopolize the market and leave farmers with no real choice.

The concerns might have been muted if successive governments hadn't shown a willingness to bend and break (or heck, even set new rules) for a couple of major industrialists. As things stand, it is hard to trust the government.

Re: 250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

#40

Post by 0xFFFE »

glasss wrote: post #35
0xFFFE wrote: post #33

Again, there is so much disinformation citing opinion pieces. Here is a link to Govt. of India Gazette notification of the Farm Bill. http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf TL;DR: Until now, farmers were at the mercy of middlemen to sell their produce. With the new act Farmers are free to sell it to anyone [E.g grocery chains] directly in addition to the Govt guaranteed minimum price [a.k.a MSP] So if M…

I'm not well versed (or even poorly versed) in agriculture economics but isn't this what the United States does to a certain degree? I know some farmers get subsidies but I'm not sure how / why.

most farmers in India are very poor, they depend on the profit from the crops to do anything in their families. Example, marriage of their kdis, fixing their house etc. Most of them have small patches of land and depend entirely on monsoon rains. So if the rains fail in a given year OR the supply is too high in the market, farmers don't even break even.

So to protect farmers, Govt of India and the state govts provide lot of subsidies and incentives. Here is a short list: 1) They don't pay taxes on their income. 2) Get loans at a very low interest rates. Most of the time loans are waived off. 3) They don't pay for the electricity used for farming. 4) They get subsidized prices on the seeds, fertilizers etc.

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