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Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

theguardian.com

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Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#41

Post by divbzero »

polishdude20 wrote: post #31
there_the_and wrote: post #7

Rock art is really weird because there are exactly same motifs using the same materials (usually red ochre) all over the world and separated by tens of thousands of years. People act like it’s no big deal, but it sure looks like a pretty big deal that raises some interesting questions. We have a global view of information flows now, and I feel like I haven’t seen a lot of behaviors in humanity that explain how this h…

It could be that there's tonnes of people doing hand things with lots of different materials. Then, because of the composition of that red ochre material, only the drawings that were made with that stuff stick around for long enough for us to see them.

Yes, and “long enough for us to see them” actually comprises two independent factors: (1) survivorship bias, in that red ochre on rock can last a long time, and (2) “discoverability” bias, in that red ochre on rock is relatively easy to spot.

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#42

Post by Cthulhu_ »

chrisco255 wrote: post #18
TrainedMonkey wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a theory - survivorship bias. Humans made all kinds of things, but only small amount of it survived. Red ochre on rock faces just happened to be something that lasts a long time. To expand on that I think there was a lot of self expression covering all possible surfaces. So the statement shifts from many human groups picked same thing to express themselves to multiple self expressive groups discovered ochre t…

Yeah I bet there were hundreds of thousands of works of art painted on animal canvas or pottery, but due to deterioration did not survive.

Pottery is one of those things that is still found regularly in archeological finds; it doesn't really deteriorate if it's sealed / buried.

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#43

Post by romseb »

there_the_and wrote: post #7

Rock art is really weird because there are exactly same motifs using the same materials (usually red ochre) all over the world and separated by tens of thousands of years. People act like it’s no big deal, but it sure looks like a pretty big deal that raises some interesting questions. We have a global view of information flows now, and I feel like I haven’t seen a lot of behaviors in humanity that explain how this h…

As a solution to this problem, Rupert Sheldrake proposes his hypothesis of "Morphic Resonance" [1]. While it's a far-out idea and rejected by the scientific community, I found it an interesting read nonetheless.

[1] https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance/introdu...

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#44

Post by throwaway894345 »

divbzero wrote: post #41
polishdude20 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be that there's tonnes of people doing hand things with lots of different materials. Then, because of the composition of that red ochre material, only the drawings that were made with that stuff stick around for long enough for us to see them.

Yes, and “long enough for us to see them” actually comprises two independent factors: (1) survivorship bias, in that red ochre on rock can last a long time, and (2) “discoverability” bias, in that red ochre on rock is relatively easy to spot.

Additionally perhaps people (would-be discoverers) ignore art in remote places that is not a hand print or otherwise pictographic as probably a natural anomaly and not human-made?

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#45

Post by Cthulhu_ »

Igelau wrote: post #22

> One figure wears a mask resembling a bird with a beak. Tinfoil time: that one's a fairly common image in petroglyphs on several continents. See also the "Squatter Man".

Theory one: People retained certain cultural traits during the spread of humans across the world, like the squatter man, and these cultural figures were forgotten or replaced at a much slower rate than they have been in the past 5-10K years.

Theory two: The figures were independently reinvented multiple times over. I mean birds appear pretty much everywhere. Same with e.g pyramid shapes appearing all over the world; it's the most simple, most stable shape to build something tall ish, yet a bit prettier than just a mound.

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#46

Post by ncmncm »

romseb wrote: post #43
there_the_and wrote: post #7

Rock art is really weird because there are exactly same motifs using the same materials (usually red ochre) all over the world and separated by tens of thousands of years. People act like it’s no big deal, but it sure looks like a pretty big deal that raises some interesting questions. We have a global view of information flows now, and I feel like I haven’t seen a lot of behaviors in humanity that explain how this h…

As a solution to this problem, Rupert Sheldrake proposes his hypothesis of "Morphic Resonance" [1]. While it's a far-out idea and rejected by the scientific community, I found it an interesting read nonetheless. [1] https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance/introdu...

The examples cited always turn out to be entirely made up.

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#48

Post by thinkingemote »

aazaa wrote: post #13

> Their date is based partly on their depictions of now-extinct ice age animals, such as the mastodon, a prehistoric relative of the elephant that hasn’t roamed South America for at least 12,000 years. There are also images of the palaeolama, an extinct camelid, as well as giant sloths and ice age horses. The article doesn't describe what other means were used, but this is important. It's also a little disappointing…

https://twitter.com/bendormiki/status/1330826184746278917?s=...

for some photos including the sloth

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#49

Post by thinkingemote »

da39a3ee wrote: post #5

This article is an embarrassment to the anglophone world. The rock art in Chiribiquete is already well-known in Colombia. Perhaps this expedition discovered some new cliffs with paintings, or perhaps not. I doubt it personally, more like they got a film crew there. But the article gives the distinct impression that Colombians (including the indigenous people of the amazon basin) themselves aren't capable of discoveri…

different place, apparently.

Re: Rock art discovered in remote Amazon forest

#50

Post by fleddr »

"The site is so remote that, after a two-hour drive from San José del Guaviare, a team of archaeologists and film-makers trekked on foot for around four hours."

So...not remote at all? This is less remote than the typical national park over there.

The snake danger is overstated as always, for extra sensationalism. Snakes don't hunt people. Unlikely attacks are defensive, when provoked, and virtually always happen domestically. The death rate after an unlikely bite of the top 3 most dangerous snakes in Colombia is in the range of 1-3%. Not 80%. And surely when you see it, it's easy to avoid.

"The territory where the paintings have been discovered was completely off limits until recently and still involves careful negotiation to enter safely."

Given the nonsense in the rest of the article, likely another exaggeration. Even in areas of Colombia declared red (= do not travel to in any case), you can just go. They are giant areas, where locals know exactly the 95% of the area safe to visit. Where nothing has happened for many years, with zero rebel presence. Just avoid that 5%.

FARC is gone and ELN focuses on sabotaging infrastructure. There's no interest in visitors or tourists. The latter has been true for about 2 decades now.

A true and real risk over there is running into somebody in a forest doing something illegal (narco, logging, gold mining). Then you de-escalate, pay, and wish them a good day.

None of this dismisses the beauty and importance of the discovery, just triggered at these constant falsehoods about Colombia and sensationalist writing.

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