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No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

sciencemag.org

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Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#411

Post by tesmar2 »

kennywinker wrote: post #407
staticautomatic wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this should be downvoted just because it’s crass. In a way its crassness illustrates an important point. We have a vocabulary for abortion which very deliberately avoids confronting the simple fact that it involves killing an unborn child. That is the choice in pro-choice. Anyway, yeah, we make valuable things out of dead unborn babies. It’s a hell of a silver lining.

You’re making a choice to see fetal tissue as a baby or an unborn child - something that is not in any way inherently true. Since there are opposing strongly held viewpoints on abortion and neither can be proven to be more correct than the other - neutral language seems like the best way forward. You can claim the language is biased, but as a medical procedure it’s coded in all the same language as any other medical…

> something that is not in any way inherently true

Wrong. The egg has been fertilized and there is unique human DNA. This is a new, unique human we're dealing with.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#412

Post by tesmar2 »

kennywinker wrote: post #408
jsz0 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno but my understanding is there are completely ethical ways to obtain embryonic stem cells for research.

As someone who believes abortion is entirely ethical, I don’t really like the framing of your statement - but yes there are ways to obtain embryonic stem cells that don’t involve abortion - specifically the unused embryos from IVF

Still an embryo, hence a young human.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#413

Post by tesmar2 »

lambda wrote: post #409
tesmar2 wrote: post #395

Is it true that the flesh of murdered babies (embryonic stem cells) was used during the research for this vaccine?

The fact that you use the term "flesh of murdered babies" to refer to embryonic stem cells, which even the Catholic Church simply refers to as "aborted fetal cell lines", indicates that you've bought way too heavily into the right-wing American culture war. But anyhow, to answer your question despite the terrible way it was asked, no, the Moderna vaccine did not use embryonic stem cells in its development or producti…

These human children (embryos) are murdered through abortion and their parts are "donated" to labs for research. What a perverse incentive chain.

I have no interest in what the Catholic church thinks, only in that vaccines are not produced nor are in any way associated with the flesh of murdered children.

It appears the Pfizer did, and now, by association, this Moderna one has as well. What an absolute shame.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#414

Post by throwaway201103 »

philshem wrote: post #7

>>> Anti-vaxxers immediately jump on any report of possible adverse events in a vaccine trial (which are thoroughly investigated, of course). >>> Let’s spare a thought today for the person who signed up for the Moderna vaccine trial, received two placebo shots and died of covid19. https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1333401133260419072 --- edit: Please explain the downvotes. The vaccine volunteer would be alive if he w…

He would have died anyway. Without control groups, we can't test vaccines. So we would not have vaccines. It's not bad to spare a thought for him though. Just bad luck, like a person getting hit and killed by a bus, which would not have happened if he hadn't misplaced his keys and left the house later than he planned.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#415

Post by [deleted] »

tesmar2 wrote: post #413
lambda wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you use the term "flesh of murdered babies" to refer to embryonic stem cells, which even the Catholic Church simply refers to as "aborted fetal cell lines", indicates that you've bought way too heavily into the right-wing American culture war. But anyhow, to answer your question despite the terrible way it was asked, no, the Moderna vaccine did not use embryonic stem cells in its development or producti…

These human children (embryos) are murdered through abortion and their parts are "donated" to labs for research. What a perverse incentive chain. I have no interest in what the Catholic church thinks, only in that vaccines are not produced nor are in any way associated with the flesh of murdered children. It appears the Pfizer did, and now, by association, this Moderna one has as well. What an absolute shame.

[deleted]

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#416

Post by tesmar2 »

lambda wrote: post #409
tesmar2 wrote: post #395

Is it true that the flesh of murdered babies (embryonic stem cells) was used during the research for this vaccine?

The fact that you use the term "flesh of murdered babies" to refer to embryonic stem cells, which even the Catholic Church simply refers to as "aborted fetal cell lines", indicates that you've bought way too heavily into the right-wing American culture war. But anyhow, to answer your question despite the terrible way it was asked, no, the Moderna vaccine did not use embryonic stem cells in its development or producti…

The fact that you want to soften the impact of what happens to these children, regardless of what the Catholic church thinks, indicates that you've bought way too heavily into the prevailing liberal attitude of the day.

But, thank you for confirming that the vaccine is associated in some way with harvesting the flesh of murdered children.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#417

Post by m-ee »

tesmar2 wrote: post #412
kennywinker wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who believes abortion is entirely ethical, I don’t really like the framing of your statement - but yes there are ways to obtain embryonic stem cells that don’t involve abortion - specifically the unused embryos from IVF

Still an embryo, hence a young human.

Out of curiosity what would you have done with them? They'd otherwise be destroyed and they're an inevitable result of the process. Do you oppose IVF?

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#418

Post by tim333 »

theferalrobot wrote: post #362
tim333 wrote: post #246

Same with the Oxford / AstraZeneca vaccine "No hospitalizations or severe cases of COVID-19 were reported in those receiving the vaccine." https://apnews.com/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-third-cheaper... They all seem quite promising.

Like all things with the oxford vaccine - that is only if you look at one slice of the data (in which there were no elderly)... why they didn’t include elderly is beyond me but of course there aren’t going to be severe cases in vaccinated patients 18-55 https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/23/ox...

I think the no serious cases includes the over 55s. The BMJ are clearer in their wording

>The analysis included 131 covid-19 cases and showed the vaccine was 62% effective when given as two standard doses (8895 participants) one month apart, but 90% effective when a half dose followed by a standard dose regime (2741) was used. No hospitalised or severe cases were found in anyone who received the vaccine. https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4564

I think the 62% effectiveness which on the surface doesn't look that good, included basically asymptomatic people who PCR tested positive.

I'm not sure the other testing included asymptomatics so the difference between the vaccines may not be as large as it looks.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#419

Post by sobani »

theferalrobot wrote: post #362
tim333 wrote: post #246

Same with the Oxford / AstraZeneca vaccine "No hospitalizations or severe cases of COVID-19 were reported in those receiving the vaccine." https://apnews.com/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-third-cheaper... They all seem quite promising.

Like all things with the oxford vaccine - that is only if you look at one slice of the data (in which there were no elderly)... why they didn’t include elderly is beyond me but of course there aren’t going to be severe cases in vaccinated patients 18-55 https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/23/ox...

Why is it so obvious that there wouldn't be any severe cases in vaccinated patients 18-55, when there have been severe cases in infected people 18-55 (outside this trial, I don't know enough about this trial to make a comment about that)?

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#420

Post by jrochkind1 »

theferalrobot wrote: post #362
tim333 wrote: post #246

Same with the Oxford / AstraZeneca vaccine "No hospitalizations or severe cases of COVID-19 were reported in those receiving the vaccine." https://apnews.com/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-third-cheaper... They all seem quite promising.

Like all things with the oxford vaccine - that is only if you look at one slice of the data (in which there were no elderly)... why they didn’t include elderly is beyond me but of course there aren’t going to be severe cases in vaccinated patients 18-55 https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/23/ox...

Were there no severe cases in the control group either? From my limited understanding of how these things are done, I assumed there must have been severe cases in the control group (which would have the same exclusions), and enough of them for some statistical test to show meaningful difference between the groups, for them to be trumpeting no severe cases in experimental group. No? If not, that would indeed to my non-statistician eye seem kind of sketchy. But if yes, thats how it works right?
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