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Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

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Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#211

Post by CJefferson »

brian_cloutier wrote: post #177
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and anybody who loses their money on the stock exchange, already spent that money on a security and then the security lost value. What's the difference?

The GP seems to be implying that using bitcoin is risky, which is true, but as evidence cites someone who lost money while not holding bitcoin. I'm sure people also lost CAD they had been storing in Quadriga; when you put money into an uninsured bank/exchange you might lose it, losing it is not evidence that bitcoin itself is risky.

With bitcoin the choices seems equivalent to unsecured banks (trust someone else), or gold bars under the mattress (hope they don't get stolen, you don't get incapacitated and they get forgotten about, etc). I wouldn't want to store a significant chunk of my savings in either of those situations.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#212

Post by cloudinshape »

arcticbull wrote: post #170
cloudinshape wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why spend something now when you can spend less for the same thing later That is nonsense. Sadly by repeating it enough people have started to actually believe it, and repeat it without looking at the evidence of the real world. A cheap pair of jeans, adjusted for inflation was ~$150 in 1980. Now you can get one for $10. Did no one wore jeans for 40 years? Meat, it has never been so cheap IN HISTORY to buy meat, an…

lol that’s what happens when technology increases productivity. I actually addressed all this. Staples will continue to be purchased hand to mouth leaving the poor unable to benefit from deflation while the rich sit on their idle cash and grow their largesse without increasing economic activity.

> I actually addressed all this.

No, you repeated propaganda that told you to think you did, but as with the rest of your “points”, too many lols very little substance.

> that’s what happens when technology increases productivity.

Not when, technology ALWAYS increases productivity, that is the point of technology. Deflation is inevitable because productivity increases are inevitable.

And the poor have benefitted immensely from deflation, despite central banks doing everything they can to rob you of its benefits. More people than ever can now afford to eat meat, or drink single malt scotch, or whatever. More people eat lobster now than in any other time in history, that is the power and benefit of deflation.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#213

Post by arcticbull »

georgesC wrote: post #207
arcticbull wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each of the languages you called out have changed dramatically to respond to the needs of users, which Bitcoin cannot, has not and will not do. You’re basically advocating for K&R C forever. Re inflation again, has no impact on poor workers. The amount of value transferred to them in exchange for work is purely social policy and fiscal policy not monetary policy. You can improve workers mobility by supporting unions…

Bitcoin can change depending on the need of the users, assuming it's something accepted by them, which sounds fair to me. As for the inflation/fiat it just seems to me that you keep ignoring the possibility of a failure of such system. A failure of such system would for sure have terrible consequences and the poor unlike the wealthier will have harder times. Investing the fiat is a good idea, not something remotely p…

> Bitcoin can change depending on the need of the users, assuming it's something accepted by them, which sounds fair to me.

No? In what way.

> As for the inflation/fiat it just seems to me that you keep ignoring the possibility of a failure of such system. A failure of such system would for sure have terrible consequences and the poor unlike the wealthier will have harder times.

A collapse in finance would affect the people who have money and value, that'd be the rich who'd be affected. It would not affect those who don't have money. Like inflation.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#214

Post by arcticbull »

cloudinshape wrote: post #212
arcticbull wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol that’s what happens when technology increases productivity. I actually addressed all this. Staples will continue to be purchased hand to mouth leaving the poor unable to benefit from deflation while the rich sit on their idle cash and grow their largesse without increasing economic activity.

> I actually addressed all this. No, you repeated propaganda that told you to think you did, but as with the rest of your “points”, too many lols very little substance. > that’s what happens when technology increases productivity. Not when, technology ALWAYS increases productivity, that is the point of technology. Deflation is inevitable because productivity increases are inevitable. And the poor have benefitted imme…

[citation needed]

> Not when, technology ALWAYS increases productivity, that is the point of technology.

Well, not bitcoin lol, it's anti-efficient.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#215

Post by mrlala »

gruez wrote: post #148
mrlala wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Credit-card companies consume a few percent of revenue And anyone that "accepts" bitcoin as payment probably takes more than that due to Bitcoin's volatility. If at the moment of a transaction, 1 BTC = 20k USD and I go to buy something that is $20k USD, it's not going to show up as "1 BTC" on the checkout.. it will probably be like 1.05 BTC. Also, credit-card companies give guarantees to both the buyers and sellers,…

>it's not going to show up as "1 BTC" on the checkout.. it will probably be like 1.05 BTC. In my experience the spread is usually under 1% of the 24 avg. >[...] and don't have to worry about fraudulent cash/checks etc. Yeah sellers overall take a bit of a hit, but the argument can be made the couple percent is worth it to never have to worry about getting scammed by a buyer. But how are you going to get scammed accep…

>In my experience the spread is usually under 1% of the 24 avg.

And how does that work? For example, the last 24hr bitcoin is up like 10%.. Let's call 5% below the current price the 24hr average.. are you suggesting that the exchange rate is 1% above the 24avg, or 4% below the current price, meaning the seller is eating 4% of the current price? That certainly does not make any sense.

>But how are you going to get scammed accepting bitcoin? It's not like it's easy to forge a bitcoin.

I agree the seller can't really get scammed, but the buyer has --zero-- recourse. So sure the seller loves it because there is no recourse and they can add a nice spread (my first point). But the buyer does not.

Whereas credit cards- both parties get benefits (even if it skews toward the buyer, however that is a good thing, it shouldn't be equal.. the seller has more information about the transaction thus the buyer should have more recourse).

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#216

Post by arcticbull »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #202
arcticbull wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well a lightning channel requires 1 on chain transaction to open and 1 to close so it’d cost $12 and for everyone on earth to open and close a single channel would take over 70 years. So it’s not really a scaling solution. And L2 isn’t blockchain anyways, you could conceivably implement lightning with classical assets.

Most people have been txing with a trusted source (e.g. coinbase). > you could conceivably implement lightning with classical assets. Not with the same security properties. The idea of building a money transfer service where you simply have many people with liquidity that transfer IOUs instead of the actual money has been around since at least the 8th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala There was no formal…

> Most people have been txing with a trusted source (e.g. coinbase).

That's not blockchain, and it's not crypto. You can do that right now with literally any asset in an InteractiveBrokers account.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#217

Post by alwillis »

arcticbull wrote: post #174
alwillis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving $10,000 USD to CAD on the blockchain is roughly $399 not $6. This is so disingenuous it's not even funny. There are so many countries that US residents can't send to without going through a middleman, which takes a cut. Bitcoin isn't for sending money to CAD, which of course you can do. It really shines to sending money to places that don't have nearly as much financial infrastructure. A regular wire transfer…

(1) https://transferwise.com/help/articles/2571942/what-countrie... (2) the countries without infrastructure generally can’t afford to be spending even $6 on a transaction. Venezuela’s minimum wage is $2 per month. (3) Bitcoin isn't for sending money to CAD, which of course you can do. Funny how it’s always not for the thing I point out it doesn’t work for haha. Nobody can quite figure out what it is for except specu…

Nobody can quite figure out what it is for except speculation and crime.

Bitcoin is a non-sovereign, hard-capped supply, global, immutable, decentralized digital store of value. It’s an insurance policy against monetary and fiscal policy irresponsibility from central banks and governments globally.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#218

Post by johnyzee »

bilater wrote: post #153

Hacker news tech bros pissing on Bitcoin with smart sounding but really just dumb ass e=mc2 arguments. Then they wonder why they have to answer to that PM or idiot CEO.

Bitcoin enthusiasm is inversely correlated with faith in the financial system that be. Hacker News is founded, and largely frequented, by (would be) entrepreneurs, whose model of success is linking up with big financial players who make up the current system. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

Kind of sad to see a crowd who supposedly values information technology and vision, as means to transform society (make the world a better place!) get so ideologically bent out of shape about a technical project - and one so undeniably incredible as bitcoin. I mean, if people find it dumb or useless, that's one thing, we hear that about projects all the time, but with bitcoin people here get downright nasty with the comments, take moral stands and so on.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#219

Post by mrlala »

hahaxdxd123 wrote: post #161
mrlala wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>An inflationary currency incentivises you to invest it Still not convinced that is a good thing. It perpetuates a cycle that rewards people who already have excess income to "invest" and keep making more money. Meanwhile those without any significant income to invest are left even further in the dust. I'm not arguing for crypto at all here- just commenting specifically on that inflationary point.

How would anyone get capital to do anything if you could see 5% gains just sitting on the money? How many fewer tech giants and unicorns would we see? We already know what happens when people aren't incentivised to invest - it's called a recession.

>if you could see 5% gains just sitting on the money

Who said 5% sitting on money? I'm talking about a situation where there is basically no real inflation or deflation. $100 is $100. You can still choose to take your money and invest it if you want, but you aren't forced to GAMBLE your money (you can use the word invest all you want, but 99% of the time it's simply gambling).

>How many fewer tech giants and unicorns would we see?

So first of all, you are completely butchering what I said per above.. but in any case, maybe that's a good thing not to see all the tech giants and unicorns? People are so obsessed with doing things so they can "make it big" it's really just sad. HN in particular, I see it all the time here. All most people seem to care about is trying to make the most money possible and less about things that are actual helpful.

Greed is a hell of a drug.

>We already know what happens when people aren't incentivized to invest - it's called a recession.

That is quite a stretch. You will always have people that want to gamble their money. My point is you should not be FORCED to gamble your money to play the game the rich people who set the rules want you to.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#220

Post by arcticbull »

alwillis wrote: post #217
arcticbull wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) https://transferwise.com/help/articles/2571942/what-countrie... (2) the countries without infrastructure generally can’t afford to be spending even $6 on a transaction. Venezuela’s minimum wage is $2 per month. (3) Bitcoin isn't for sending money to CAD, which of course you can do. Funny how it’s always not for the thing I point out it doesn’t work for haha. Nobody can quite figure out what it is for except specu…

Nobody can quite figure out what it is for except speculation and crime. Bitcoin is a non-sovereign, hard-capped supply, global, immutable, decentralized digital store of value. It’s an insurance policy against monetary and fiscal policy irresponsibility from central banks and governments globally.

I agree with part (1) but there's no reason (1) implies (2).

After all, Chuck-E-Cheese tokens fit a large part of the definition in part (1). After all they're non-sovereign, limited issuance, global, immutable and decentralized. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believes that implies Chuck-E-Cheese tokens are an insurance policy against monetary and fiscal policy irresponsibility from central banks and governments globally.

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