Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#161

Post by hahaxdxd123 » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

mrlala wrote: post #111

hahaxdxd123 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? What economic value do cryptocurrencies provide over our traditional banking system? - being deflationary is not a feature, it's a bug. An inflationary currency incentivises you to invest it, otherwise you lose real purchasing power. With a deflationary currency, you can just stuff it anywhere and see gains. You steal from tomorrow. As the material wealth of the world increases, our money supply should inc…

>An inflationary currency incentivises you to invest it Still not convinced that is a good thing. It perpetuates a cycle that rewards people who already have excess income to "invest" and keep making more money. Meanwhile those without any significant income to invest are left even further in the dust. I'm not arguing for crypto at all here- just commenting specifically on that inflationary point.

How would anyone get capital to do anything if you could see 5% gains just sitting on the money? How many fewer tech giants and unicorns would we see?

We already know what happens when people aren't incentivised to invest - it's called a recession.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#162

Post by jcfrei » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #45

seibelj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tether is a cornerstone of the crypto industry. You can post some random blog posts here but Tether is actually used by trading firms, and can be minted and redeemed through their portal here https://app.tether.to/app/login The Tether FUD is so dumb, but it's the last straw being grasped by perma-bears.

Nonsense. Tether has never been redeemed, and even if it could be redeemed, there is no possible way that they could cover the balance of issued tethers. It’s the mother of all Ponzi schemes, clearly, and is definitely going to implode in the next big pullback.

These accusations against Tether are very outdated. Read Matt Levine's take from 2019 on an ongoing lawsuit: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-26/things...

The quintessential part is this: The New York attorney general’s filing refutes the extreme version of those doubts — Tether mostly had the dollars — but it is nonetheless a wild ride that alleges that Tether’s backing might not be as good as it claims.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#163

Post by Scott_Sanderson » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

socrates1998 wrote: post #43

Would be great to short-sell right now, but that's almost impossible to do the last I checked.

It's one thing to piss on btc on hacker news but would you really put up money shorting it? There are multiple ways to do so.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#164

Post by bilater » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #156

bilater wrote: post #153

Hacker news tech bros pissing on Bitcoin with smart sounding but really just dumb ass e=mc2 arguments. Then they wonder why they have to answer to that PM or idiot CEO.

Wait I thought it was the tech bros shilling btc, I can't keep up anymore.

It's a bit of this: https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q...

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#165

Post by arcticbull » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

cloudinshape wrote: post #158

arcticbull wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the social ills you identify are a function of fiat currency which is intentionally a temporary, lossy store of value. You take your fiat and you invest it and nothing you say below the first paragraph matters. Savings are meant to be assets not currency, whether that’s stock, bonds, real estate - whatever. Even a savings account collateralizes loans. You’re not supposed to save cash. Whoever told you that ha…

> You take your fiat and you invest it and nothing you say below the first paragraph matters. If only. The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford. > The issue…

> The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford.

If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back.

> ...what do you think money is?

Money is an intentionally lossy temporary store or value and a medium of exchange. Interact, yes. Store long term, no.

If you have problems with monetary policy vote in a new government, just taking your ball to the BVI isn’t a solution.

> ...you don’t understand what Bitcoin is.

I understand full well, and I believe those are bad things. Deflation is bad, for the reason I stated, and an inability to print means an inability to respond to geopolitical shocks (like COVID, for instance Canada has been paying everyone $2000/month this whole time). Not to mention an inability to grow supply with the entry of new market participants.

Bitcoin cannot and will not change the wealth gap when it’s overwhelmingly spoken for already. The best you can do is sentence your children to fight for scraps while the new moneyed class of criminals and lowlifes continues to grow in relative wealth as a fraction of economic activity by doing literally nothing with their money - backed on an inflation schedule created and managed not by economists or experts but a narcotics smuggler and a bunch of random GitHub contributors.

If you really want to change society for the better, run for office, don’t shill magic beans.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#166

Post by brian_cloutier » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #157

brian_cloutier wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Energy use in equilibrium is proportional to the value of the block rewards plus transaction rewards. Good point, you're right, I was forgetting this. > since the value of each unit would have to increase to satisfy the demand. I didn't follow this though, what do you mean? > In a world where Bitcoin replaces gold or visa It doesn't seem very meaningful to me to talk about energy usage in this world because Bitcoin…

> I didn't follow this though, what do you mean? I should have worded it better, I just mean that if Bitcoin were to replace gold as the primary store of value, the price of Bitcoin would have to rise significantly to absorb the demand, since supply is inelastic. This in turn would increase the environmental externalities.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure it would increase the environmental externalities.

Since transaction inclusion is a marketplace and since most products we care about will continue to be denominated in local currencies I don't think transaction fees will change much as the price of bitcoin changes.

As the dollar-denominated value of a 0.01btc fee increases people will become less willing to spend that 0.01btc. There might be some stickiness but I expect the kwh-denominated fees will grow much more slowly than the price of bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#167

Post by hahaxdxd123 » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

cloudinshape wrote: post #149

arcticbull wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deflation reduces the velocity of money (why spend something now when you can spend less for the same thing later). This creates a negative feedback cycle which reduces economic activity and worse it increases inequality. This happens because the poor continue to transact hand to mouth and are unable to save while the wealthy accreted value on their idle cash. Invested cash creates economic activity. The cash in your…

> why spend something now when you can spend less for the same thing later That is nonsense. Sadly by repeating it enough people have started to actually believe it, and repeat it without looking at the evidence of the real world. A cheap pair of jeans, adjusted for inflation was ~$150 in 1980. Now you can get one for $10. Did no one wore jeans for 40 years? Meat, it has never been so cheap IN HISTORY to buy meat, an…

Those things got cheaper because of advances in supply chains and technology.

I mean you can just do the simple mathematics. Suppose there are 100 utility units of wealth in the world - machinery, homes, anything tangible to improve lives - and 100 units of currency to match. Through human labour we produce another 100 utility units. Now each unit of currency can provide me 2 utility units. This is just a system that rewards wealth more than work, even more so than our current system.

Let's look at capital flows. Why in the world would I ever loan to a small business if I could see gains just by holding the money? Why would I ever give companies money in IPOs? There is much less of an incentive to direct capital to those who can be the most productive with it.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#168

Post by alwillis » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #105

WealthVsSurvive wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a plutocrat wealth store during uncertainty, like gold, but it has no intrinsic value. That's it, that's its only purpose.

Preface: Bitcoin is a neat idea (decentralized currency), but it’s not practical at scale. Reply: To be fair, the US’ currency has no intrinsic value either. Prior to the removal of the gold standard, your $20 bill was backed by exactly $20 worth of gold in some vault. Mid-1970s, the gold standard was stopped and the US’ currency became “fiat”; it only has value because the US says it does. Should the US’ economy col…

It’s not exactly the same, but Bitcoin is essentially fiat money as its only value is what people say it is (somewhat similar to the stock market). So I think it’s an apt comparison.

Absolutely not. There's nothing "fiat" about Bitcoin. Fiat means by decree—there's no Bitcoin nation or organization that decreed that Bitcoin is valuable.

There's no authority that says what a Bitcoin is worth; the market decides.

Bitcoin, like gold, is hard money.

https://tradesmithdaily.com/educational/bitcoin-is-the-pures...

https://www.realvision.com/shows/the-interview-crypto/videos...

This is perhaps the best podcast for Bitcoin skeptics: "Bitcoin Common Misconceptions w/ Robert Breedlove"—https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/btc001-bitcoin-common-...

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#169

Post by brian_cloutier » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #151

brian_cloutier wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used Bitcoin to send money internationally. I did not spend any money on turning my dollars into bitcoin, because I already had bitcoin. I did not pay $90 in electricity costs, it seems a little silly to bring the block reward up. You already have a good argument for what you're trying to say, you don't need to pretend that a cost others pay is a cost the transaction sender pays. As far as I know the recipient…

Ill grant you socialized cost of block reward is contentious and probably a distraction, though I personally stand by it. I’d argue your friends have simply deferred the conversion fee back to fiat, but I digress. There may be times when it’s less expensive, although it is also riskier, just ask the dude who lost $400K to the Quadriaga collapse.

Anyone who loses their money when an exchange collapses has not lost bitcoin, they already spent that bitcoin on a bitcoin-denominated-receivable and then lost that receivable.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#170

Post by arcticbull » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 7:33 PM UTC

cloudinshape wrote: post #149

arcticbull wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deflation reduces the velocity of money (why spend something now when you can spend less for the same thing later). This creates a negative feedback cycle which reduces economic activity and worse it increases inequality. This happens because the poor continue to transact hand to mouth and are unable to save while the wealthy accreted value on their idle cash. Invested cash creates economic activity. The cash in your…

> why spend something now when you can spend less for the same thing later That is nonsense. Sadly by repeating it enough people have started to actually believe it, and repeat it without looking at the evidence of the real world. A cheap pair of jeans, adjusted for inflation was ~$150 in 1980. Now you can get one for $10. Did no one wore jeans for 40 years? Meat, it has never been so cheap IN HISTORY to buy meat, an…

lol that’s what happens when technology increases productivity. I actually addressed all this. Staples will continue to be purchased hand to mouth leaving the poor unable to benefit from deflation while the rich sit on their idle cash and grow their largesse without increasing economic activity.