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The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

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Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#71

Post by tuatoru »

d33lio wrote: post #59
sandworm101 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

This is precisely the literary slight of hand I was talking about! Similar to Musk's hilarious dismissal of hydrogen technology. Hydrogen will obviously in time become the ideal source of energy for electric aircraft and electric long haul trucks.

"Obviously" is shorthand for "I want you to believe this but I don't have evidence for it, and I can't see how to validate it".

Used a lot in mathematics, substituting "proof" for "evidence".

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#72

Post by tuatoru »

d33lio wrote: post #60
bryanlarsen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble following your argument. Are you saying it's bad that Tesla batteries are being reused instead of recycled? Or are you claiming that Tesla is taking credit for the reuse and that's bad? Musk has stated publicly that they will recycle Tesla batteries once they become available in enough volume to make it viable. He'd be stupid not to -- they will be a cheaper source of nickel and cobalt than digging…

Re-use != Recycling

That's right, it's better.

The old mantra "reduce, re-use, recycle" is in that order because that's the order of "greenness". Recycling should be the last resort.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#73

Post by pcdoodle »

hanche wrote: post #70
xxpor wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even full EVs have old school 12v lead acids in them because they still have a full 12v system to run ~everything in the car that aren't actual traction motors (for compatibility with the existing automotive supply chain if nothing else). There's a regulation at least in the US that says the HV system also has to be physically disconnected when the car isn't being used so if the 12v battery dies you're still stuck li…

I have owned no less than three Kia Soul EVs. The first two would succumb to a flat 12V battery, but the latest (a 2020 model) will connect the HV battery to charge the 12V battery if needed, even when the car is parked and switched off. You can see it in action, as a blue light on the dash will flash while this goes on.

I'm surprised this wasn't thought of from the very beginning. Must be the Big Battery Lobby.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#74

Post by amluto »

function_seven wrote: post #58
sandworm101 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them. The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

There’s a different problem with your scheme. Tesla doors won’t unlock if the 12V system dies.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#75

Post by CaptArmchair »

HPsquared wrote: post #61
CaptArmchair wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.

Molten salt, breeder and Thorium reactors can achieve orders-of-magnitude improvements, and aren't exactly groundbreaking technology. Reprocessing as well. Several examples from decades ago, and new designs in the pipeline. The main problems are politics and lack of funding.

The Wikipedia page highlights that there's certainly discussion, doubt and controversy surrounding those technologies.

The decisive factor of change I can see here is the unproven commercial viability of alternatives at the moment as Uranium is still cheap. Whether or not those alternatives become viable once Uranium prices increase isn't easily predicted.

So, I remain highly skeptical towars claims that dismiss the issue as merely a problem of "politics and lack of funding".

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#76

Post by CaptArmchair »

08-15 wrote: post #65
CaptArmchair wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.

> Uranium supplies are also finite So is the sun, and they will both last for roughly the same time, i.e. 5 billion years.[1] [1] http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/cohen.html

You just referred to a HTML page

... having a counter on the bottom which says:

> The number of hits on this page since 1996 Feb 12

... a HTTP Response Header

> Last-Modified Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:38:36 GMT

Stating that these aren't "the latest insights" would be putting it mildly.

My comment referred to commercial viability. It at this point in time, Uranium has only been extracted from seawater in a laboratory setting, per the Wikipedia article I referenced.

Yes, there's always "but technology will advance to a point where it will be viable". But then I'd argue: Beware of optimism bias when predicting the future. You don't know whether economic, social and political circumstances will converge over the next decades towards such trajectory that extracting uranium from seawater and using it in nuclear reactors becomes a commercial viable enterprise.

You yourself may be confident they will, but that doesn't make it so.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#77

Post by 8note »

d33lio wrote: post #25

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech T…

The preference order is Reduce, Reuse, then Recycle. If they're going hard on Reuse, that's better than if they jumped straight to Recycle from a green perspective.

If Tesla is ending up with all these batteries in the end, we've also done another good thing for recycling, which is forcing Tesla, the producer, to deal with how to dispose of them, which is not the case with oil companies

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#78

Post by 8note »

function_seven wrote: post #58
sandworm101 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them. The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

I could see it being a push button switch instead, manually closing the relay.

But if the 12V is dead, the stuff running off of it will also be out

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#79

Post by 8note »

Tade0 wrote: post #36
avianlyric wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need widespread renewable electricity generation first anyway. Otherwise our electric cars will be running on coal. Even this is preferable to internal combustion engines. ICEs really aren’t very efficient, and electric car is easily 3x more energy efficient than an ICE. Which means that’s even if you include transmission losses and heat losses at a coal power station, you’re still ahead. Because of coal power s…

Minor nitpick: li-ion batteries contain no rare-earths. The catalysts used in oil refining do on the other hand - specifically Lanthanum.

The motor being run off it likely has neodymium magnets in it though?

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#80

Post by [deleted] »

djsumdog wrote: post #20
1053r wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is a pack of memes straight out of a propaganda machine. https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electri... Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource. It's an element. It will cost energy to recycle it, but that energy is increasingly sourced by clean energy sources. Let me cite the oil company, BP. https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stat... Coal is in terminal…

> Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource The article goes into why this is incredibly difficult. The vast majority of lithium batteries are in landfills, compressed between all our other garbage because maybe 2% of people on the planet properly dispose of e-waste. As far as clean energy, have you watched Planet of the Humans (2020)? I want to say, I despise Michael Moore emotional bullshit, but despite his infl…

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