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The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

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Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#61

Post by HPsquared »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #50
Accujack wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring current SMR technology in nuclear. Old style giant, expensive nuclear power plants are a non starter, but small modular reactors have a lot of promise, are zero emissions once running, and can be built using green energy in factories instead of constructed on site. Fission power plants are pretty much the only way to go fully "green"... renewables are great and have a big place in the future, but unle…

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.

Molten salt, breeder and Thorium reactors can achieve orders-of-magnitude improvements, and aren't exactly groundbreaking technology. Reprocessing as well. Several examples from decades ago, and new designs in the pipeline. The main problems are politics and lack of funding.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#62

Post by djsumdog »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #50
Accujack wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring current SMR technology in nuclear. Old style giant, expensive nuclear power plants are a non starter, but small modular reactors have a lot of promise, are zero emissions once running, and can be built using green energy in factories instead of constructed on site. Fission power plants are pretty much the only way to go fully "green"... renewables are great and have a big place in the future, but unle…

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.

and we've wasted so much of our uranium making bombs that can never be used as fuel. There is research in trying to use highly enriched uranium as a fuel source, but I doubt that will ever be a safe reality.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#63

Post by JumpCrisscross »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29
d33lio wrote: post #25

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech T…

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

> It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so.

This is a major point to assume away.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#64

Post by LockAndLol »

d33lio wrote: post #59
sandworm101 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

This is precisely the literary slight of hand I was talking about! Similar to Musk's hilarious dismissal of hydrogen technology. Hydrogen will obviously in time become the ideal source of energy for electric aircraft and electric long haul trucks.

Has hydrogen storage been solved? How big would a hydrogen tank have to be to power a plane for more than an hour? And what is the conversion rate of hydrogen to electricity?

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#65

Post by 08-15 »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #50
Accujack wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring current SMR technology in nuclear. Old style giant, expensive nuclear power plants are a non starter, but small modular reactors have a lot of promise, are zero emissions once running, and can be built using green energy in factories instead of constructed on site. Fission power plants are pretty much the only way to go fully "green"... renewables are great and have a big place in the future, but unle…

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.

> Uranium supplies are also finite

So is the sun, and they will both last for roughly the same time, i.e. 5 billion years.[1]

[1] http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/cohen.html

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#66

Post by sandworm101 »

function_seven wrote: post #58
sandworm101 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them. The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

Maybe, but the dead battery is still in the circuit. So a tiny wire won't provide enough current to raise the voltage enough across the entire circuit. (I assume that it requires something akin to a the solenoid of a IC car.) You don't need the cranking amps, but you will still need something thicker than a USB cable.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#67

Post by toomuchtodo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #63
toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

> It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brine ponds, so it makes economic sense to do the R&D to do so. This is a major point to assume away.

I make the assumption based on existing evidence. I could be be wrong if it gets drastically cheaper to source lithium, nickel, and iron from mining operations versus concentrated ore in end of life cells. Doesn’t seem likely based on mining costs and the demand curve (demand will increase as fast or faster than reserves can be sourced), as well as jurisdictions mandating manufacturers stand up recycling supply chains for the products they're building and selling (California did this with solar PV, many others have done it for electronics recycling in general, for example).

I would be willing to make a Long Bet [1] on this point. Accountability is important.

[1] https://longbets.org/

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#68

Post by function_seven »

sandworm101 wrote: post #66
function_seven wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them. The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

Maybe, but the dead battery is still in the circuit. So a tiny wire won't provide enough current to raise the voltage enough across the entire circuit. (I assume that it requires something akin to a the solenoid of a IC car.) You don't need the cranking amps, but you will still need something thicker than a USB cable.

Ah, good point. I guess it matters whether your battery is drained, or dead. Sometimes the battery just doesn't have the juice to turn the starter (you hear the clicking of the solenoid when trying to start, but no cranking). Other times it's so depleted that an external current supply will be sucked up by the thirsty battery.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#69

Post by hanche »

function_seven wrote: post #58
sandworm101 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them. The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

It probably won’t take a large current, but I expect you need more than just enough to close a relay. Most likely, you’ll need enough to power some CPUs and data buses as well. That’s still tiny compared to the current required to run a starter motor, though.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#70

Post by hanche »

xxpor wrote: post #53
sandworm101 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Even full EVs have old school 12v lead acids in them because they still have a full 12v system to run ~everything in the car that aren't actual traction motors (for compatibility with the existing automotive supply chain if nothing else). There's a regulation at least in the US that says the HV system also has to be physically disconnected when the car isn't being used so if the 12v battery dies you're still stuck li…

I have owned no less than three Kia Soul EVs. The first two would succumb to a flat 12V battery, but the latest (a 2020 model) will connect the HV battery to charge the 12V battery if needed, even when the car is parked and switched off. You can see it in action, as a blue light on the dash will flash while this goes on.
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