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The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

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Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#51

Post by throwaway894345 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #45
toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

> SOME lithium batteries are recyclable

I interpreted the original quote "Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop" to mean "all batteries are mostly (i.e., >=80%) recyclable" i.e., even lith-ion batteries are ~80% recyclable and 80% constitutes "mostly". The original quote is confusing, and I think you might be interpreting it as "most batteries are recyclable" or perhaps "most lith-ion batteries are recyclable". In whatever case, I wanted to jump in and clarify.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#52

Post by mikestew »

sandworm101 wrote: post #49
toomuchtodo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Our Nissan Leaf has a 12 volt lead-acid battery. I guess that was easier than bleeding 12 VDC off the traction battery to run the radio.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#53

Post by xxpor »

sandworm101 wrote: post #49
toomuchtodo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Even full EVs have old school 12v lead acids in them because they still have a full 12v system to run ~everything in the car that aren't actual traction motors (for compatibility with the existing automotive supply chain if nothing else).

There's a regulation at least in the US that says the HV system also has to be physically disconnected when the car isn't being used so if the 12v battery dies you're still stuck like a regular car, because you need the 12v battery to close the HV relay.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#54

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

whimsicalism wrote: post #38
goodcanadian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. What kills the batteries is fast charging or discharging and to an extent, leaving them sitting around fully charged or discharged. If the batteries are retired to do grid storage (or home storage), I would expect the charge and discharge rates to be fairly sedate, and charge levels to be managed so as not to have the battery level too low or too high for very long. I can easily imagine the batteries last…

Industrial carbon capture coal electricity production is substantially more expensive than renewables or natgas at this point, no reason to turn to it. e: hm, somehow my comment switched chains?

Natgas will need CCS too.

It plays well with renewables, in the role of peaker plants.

So I think coal is dead but fracking is here to stay.

Especially given that fracking also has a role in geothermal. It's an industrial capability that we'll want to keep.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#55

Post by creato »

djsumdog wrote: post #20
1053r wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is a pack of memes straight out of a propaganda machine. https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electri... Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource. It's an element. It will cost energy to recycle it, but that energy is increasingly sourced by clean energy sources. Let me cite the oil company, BP. https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stat... Coal is in terminal…

> Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource The article goes into why this is incredibly difficult. The vast majority of lithium batteries are in landfills, compressed between all our other garbage because maybe 2% of people on the planet properly dispose of e-waste. As far as clean energy, have you watched Planet of the Humans (2020)? I want to say, I despise Michael Moore emotional bullshit, but despite his infl…

> The vast majority of lithium batteries are in landfills, compressed between all our other garbage because maybe 2% of people on the planet properly dispose of e-waste.

Is this representative of small electronics and not vehicles? It will obviously be a lot harder and more economically significant to improperly dispose of a battery pack for a car than a cell phone.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#56

Post by sandworm101 »

xxpor wrote: post #53
sandworm101 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Even full EVs have old school 12v lead acids in them because they still have a full 12v system to run ~everything in the car that aren't actual traction motors (for compatibility with the existing automotive supply chain if nothing else). There's a regulation at least in the US that says the HV system also has to be physically disconnected when the car isn't being used so if the 12v battery dies you're still stuck li…

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#57

Post by numpad0 »

mikestew wrote: post #52
sandworm101 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Our Nissan Leaf has a 12 volt lead-acid battery. I guess that was easier than bleeding 12 VDC off the traction battery to run the radio.

Actually it’s normal for heavy machineries to have separate low voltage power for computers and high voltage large current for actuators. Even open source 3D printers has provisions to do that if so desired.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#58

Post by function_seven »

sandworm101 wrote: post #56
xxpor wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even full EVs have old school 12v lead acids in them because they still have a full 12v system to run ~everything in the car that aren't actual traction motors (for compatibility with the existing automotive supply chain if nothing else). There's a regulation at least in the US that says the HV system also has to be physically disconnected when the car isn't being used so if the 12v battery dies you're still stuck li…

That's interesting. I hadn't realized that full EVs still needed 12v batteries. I have jump-started a couple hybrids over the years (lights left on etc) but never a full EV. I would love to make a meme out of a Tesla needing to be jumped by my little honda.

I remember my surprise when I learned EVs have regular car batteries in them.

The funny thing is, I can imagine a future where "jumper cables" isn't a hefty set of thick wires intended to supply the current needed for a starter. Instead, people will have a 20' long cable with cigarette lighter plugs on both ends. The HV relay can't require that much current to close, right?

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#59

Post by d33lio »

sandworm101 wrote: post #45
toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

This is precisely the literary slight of hand I was talking about! Similar to Musk's hilarious dismissal of hydrogen technology. Hydrogen will obviously in time become the ideal source of energy for electric aircraft and electric long haul trucks.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#60

Post by d33lio »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #39
d33lio wrote: post #25

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech T…

I'm having trouble following your argument. Are you saying it's bad that Tesla batteries are being reused instead of recycled? Or are you claiming that Tesla is taking credit for the reuse and that's bad? Musk has stated publicly that they will recycle Tesla batteries once they become available in enough volume to make it viable. He'd be stupid not to -- they will be a cheaper source of nickel and cobalt than digging…

Re-use != Recycling
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