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Speaking of the British

c.moreover.com

51–60 of 82 posts

Re: Speaking of the British

#51
post #11

That article is a bizarre caricature, chock-full of misleading half-truths. "You probably did school exams in just three subjects. At university, you only study one" -- that's glaringly inaccurate. The underlying feature of the British education system is that from age 16 if they're going to university students tackle 3-4 subjects at "A" level, rather than a whole slew of them. However, the depth of study for an "A"…

This is really noticeable if you go through A levels, then end up in a university course with a high foreign student intake. The first year is almost entirely catch-up, as those who didn't do A levels get the content pumped into them so that the course proper can start in the second year.

Re: Speaking of the British

#52
post #7

I went to Oxford. I studied Physics. Yes, I learned to "wing it". If you can maneuver your way through a "tutorial" (2 students, one tutor) where the person evaluating you is one of the smartest people in the world and an expert with 40 years more experience than you, and you're hungover and didn't really study the material properly, and still come out looking ok, you can deal with almost any situation where you need…

Small case-study I know but I work with somebody who just came out of Cambridge and did a CS-like degree. He cannot program for shit and talks like he does but show him a bit of C(++), PHP, javascript (even bash or Python) and his eyes just glaze over. I was teamed with him but he was forever unable to get anything done. In the end I was left with it all and made much better progress and he was left to book to overhe…

That's not a case study, just an anecdote. In my experience, there were almost no people in Oxford that I wouldn't consider "very smart". Probably the only place in the world where that's been true.

That said, I don't know how Cambridge's "CS-like" degree is/was, but Oxford's was very bad at actually teaching programming.

Then again, are you really sure he went to Cambridge? Smart people have no problem with learning to program when they need to. That guy doesn't sound so smart...

Re: Speaking of the British

#53
post #10

This phenomenon isn't limited to England. The one thing all Harvard undergrads learn (probably as much from one another as from the professors) is how to defend themselves in conversation. Some are smart, and some aren't, but by the time they graduate they all know how to sound smart.

A trait I've noticed when working with or arguing with the products of elite universities is the incessant ability to respond to most challenges in the form of a blank stare. Harvard grads in particular, but I've noticed it in some military officers as well.

They won't get riled up, they won't back down, they won't...well...do anything in particular.

While being incredibly infuriating, it also makes them nearly impossible to read or assess. Are they smart? Are they dolts? No idea!

This enigma-like quality can get one very far in certain contexts. The ability to operate in elite positions, without becoming ruffled is a tremendously valuable skill.

The downside of course is that if things really do go pear shaped, the normal response is to show some kind of stress reaction and hopefully buckle down and get to work. Not acting like there is anything in particular going on just makes those around you wonder if the ol' gears are actually turning at all. Are they out of touch? Do they care? It can be tremendously demotivating to those around.

A company I worked for early in my carerr had to let two people with this trait go (both top-tier uni graduates) because the management didn't think they were taking a then current crisis seriously enough. We came to find that with both of them, they were effectively doing no work at all as there was almost no extra work that came out of their leaving.

When asked why they were kept around for so many years, promoted etc., management simply responded that they seemed well poised, like they knew what was going on, attended tons of meetings, sent out lots of email...so it looked like they were burning furnaces of activity.

When the crisis struck, they kept plodding along this track, scheduling meetings, refusing to let them run long, sending out dozens of emails a day, long after the rest of the team had changed behavior patterns to deal with the issue. It became such a nuisance, especially the content free, but tightly scheduled meetings, that they were finally put under higher scrutiny.

It's a office-space-esque/dilbert-esque lesson I've kept with me through my career and have run into this trait dozens of times.

I've personally found it so infuriating a trait to work with that I'm loath to hire people from certain majors in certain universities under the assumption there is some kind of communications coursework that teaches people to respond with this blank stare.

I've coined the term "the management stare" for this phenomenon.

On the other hand, the people who I've found to be top performers were consistently the dynamic, emotive people in an organization. They responded rapidly and naturally to changing conditions, showed outward emotions and got really emotionally involved in conversations, meetings and tasks. They brought an energy to the company that drove the rest of their peers along with them.

Re: Speaking of the British

#54
post #12

Odd that he mentions Margaret Thatcher without mentioning she was once a research chemist and had a chemistry degree. Doesn't fit with his content free story I guess. p.s. the link is bad, it's not moreover.com it's from the ft.com.

The moreover link helps avoid the FT paywall.

ah, fair enough then!

Re: Speaking of the British

#55
post #30

This is hilarious :) I honestly thought it was a joke... but now I am uncertain.. he seems to genuinely think that Britain is like this :S The best bit is the wonderful caricature of Oxbridge interviews, as if the modern world is left behind once you step foot in those hallowed halls :D One guy at our school that went to Oxford worked like absolute hell to get his grades, pass his entrance exam and pass the exhaustin…

The author, Simon Kuper, is British and studied at Oxford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Kuper), so while he may be wrong, it's not because he's unfamiliar with the country or the eduction system.

Re: Speaking of the British

#56
post #53
post #10

This phenomenon isn't limited to England. The one thing all Harvard undergrads learn (probably as much from one another as from the professors) is how to defend themselves in conversation. Some are smart, and some aren't, but by the time they graduate they all know how to sound smart.

A trait I've noticed when working with or arguing with the products of elite universities is the incessant ability to respond to most challenges in the form of a blank stare. Harvard grads in particular, but I've noticed it in some military officers as well. They won't get riled up, they won't back down, they won't...well...do anything in particular. While being incredibly infuriating, it also makes them nearly impos…

I have consistently found the dynamic, emotive people to be disastrous in crisis situations. They tend to act rashly without thinking through the consequences and often make things worse. When faced with a technical problem I prefer dispassionate experts who can apply a discipled, scientific approach and never get flustered.

Re: Speaking of the British

#57
post #5
post #4

"Anyway, running a country on eloquence alone hasn’t worked out disastrously – or at least not yet" Good grades are certainly not enough, but they are almost always required. Oxbridge only invites the best students to interview, and even the top 5 most academically competitive schools in the UK struggle to send more than a third of their students to Oxford or Cambridge in a good year.

"Anyway, running a country on eloquence alone hasn’t worked out disastrously – or at least not yet" The largest empire the world has ever seen whittled down to its homeland, a naval base in the med, and some godforsaken islands in the south atlantic. I'd call that pretty disastrous. It'll only get worse. In an increasingly technical world, the brits have the wrong culture of Snow's two cutures running the show.

The decline of the empire and being whittled down to 'just our island' has coincided with the best possible time to be alive in britain, very far from being a disaster.

As for having the wrong culture for the modern world; the UK for all its flaws, is an open and creative society and has been so for many generations, more than the vast majority of societies worldwide. There's no good reason to believe that the brits won't keep on taking in and improving on the best ideas form around the world.

Re: Speaking of the British

#58
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trait I've noticed when working with or arguing with the products of elite universities is the incessant ability to respond to most challenges in the form of a blank stare. Harvard grads in particular, but I've noticed it in some military officers as well. They won't get riled up, they won't back down, they won't...well...do anything in particular. While being incredibly infuriating, it also makes them nearly impos…

I have consistently found the dynamic, emotive people to be disastrous in crisis situations. They tend to act rashly without thinking through the consequences and often make things worse. When faced with a technical problem I prefer dispassionate experts who can apply a discipled, scientific approach and never get flustered.

Depends on the crisis. For crises where you have a 'book' on the situation, dispassionate, by-the-numbers execution is important. For situations where you do not, somebody had better be ready to stand up and lead.

Both approaches are valuable, but they do not address the same problems.

Re: Speaking of the British

#59
post #7

I went to Oxford. I studied Physics. Yes, I learned to "wing it". If you can maneuver your way through a "tutorial" (2 students, one tutor) where the person evaluating you is one of the smartest people in the world and an expert with 40 years more experience than you, and you're hungover and didn't really study the material properly, and still come out looking ok, you can deal with almost any situation where you need…

Small case-study I know but I work with somebody who just came out of Cambridge and did a CS-like degree. He cannot program for shit and talks like he does but show him a bit of C(++), PHP, javascript (even bash or Python) and his eyes just glaze over. I was teamed with him but he was forever unable to get anything done. In the end I was left with it all and made much better progress and he was left to book to overhe…

That's not really all that surprising - Cambridge's CS course is highly theoretical, and very grounded in mathematics. It doesn't really train programmers as such. I decided before going to uni that I wanted a more practical degree, but I think it's important for some universities to teach pure computer science as opposed to a programming/cs mix.

Re: Speaking of the British

#60

I'm british, but I have to say; this article is utter arse gravy of the highest order.

I'm also English. Calling something 'utter arse gravy of the highest order' isn't a particularly informative form of criticism.

Upvoted for employing "arse gravy of the highest order."
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