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How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

blog.beeminder.com

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Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#11

Post by dreeves »

fy20 wrote: post #9

How well does this technique work for goals where the path isn't so clearly defined? Say you want to "launch a profitable side business in 2021", how would you fit this into that? You could have a daily goal of "work 1 hour a day on my side business", but that could easily end up with you spending 365 hours reading blogs on starting a side business and not getting anywhere.

Good observation! Yes, you need a simple, graphable metric that's a good proxy for the underlying goal you care about. We've written about that a bit at http://blog.beeminder.com/whattomind

Beeminder encourages you to define and refine your metric to make sure it doesn't fall prey to Goodhart's Law. Of course it's your own goal and so it's much less susceptible to Goodhart's Law. You actually care about the underlying goal!

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#12

Post by dreeves »

justarandomq wrote: post #10
dreeves wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the incentives are quite right that way. What motivates you to keep money out of the swear jar? (It's possible that the tracking alone will be motivating. Some people, for some goals, find that to be the case.) I'd love to hear how it goes for anyone who sets up a DIY Beeminder!

I'd be motivated by the swear jar & reminders since I (would have) put it there intentionally. But I realize not everyone lives this way and busy life can be distracting. You're very right it would depend much on the person AND the goal. The main value I personally see here is the setup. I wouldn't have to set up reminders and tracking manually. I may even learn a new goal I hadn't considered if others share their go…

You should check out the Beeminder community: http://forum.beeminder.com -- I think it will quickly convince you that we're a Very Serious Tool For Self-Improvement.

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#14

Post by dreeves »

tbirdz wrote: post #13

I never really understood beeminder. What's to stop someone from just lying so they don't have to pay?

I can rattle off half a dozen things to stop someone from doing that!

1. It ruins the Quantified Self aspect. You don't want to falsify your data.

2. You've set up an autodata goal and there isn't any (easy) way to cheat. Your Fitbit (or Habitica or Duolingo or Project Euler or whatever) just tells Beeminder how many steps got (or whatever your metric is).

3. Your graph is public, and ideally you've pointed friends/family to it. Are you going to lie to your friends and family?

4. It's just part of your identity as a Beeminder user. If you were the type to falsify your data to weasel out of a commitment, you wouldn't have signed up for Beeminder in the first place.

5. Beeminder does a lot of valuable things (reminders, graphs, community, generally making you awesomer) so arguably has earned the money by the time you first derail.

6. Cheating on Beeminder is a devastating precedent that ruins the power that it had as a tool to motivate you.

7. Think of the children! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB62AyZ6gHk (Those kids are so much bigger now, because your derailments pretty literally put food in their mouths!)

Ok, that's all I've got. Here's the blog version: https://blog.beeminder.com/cheating/

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#15

Post by emmanueloga_ »

reagle wrote: post #8

I wrote about this here https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/94tu3rlx/release/2

* Regarding "life-hacking": "In an effort to keep up with a world of too much, life hackers sometimes risk going too far" [1]

* Regarding "meditation": "The Varieties of Contemplative Experience Study catalogued 59 different types of meditation-related experiences that can be distressing or associated with impairment in functioning." ... " As many as 1 in 4 meditators reports negative or unwanted effects from meditation" [2]

* There are "significantly higher mortality rate among people who regularly sit for prolonged periods" and "long term complications of prolonged standing" [3]. What's left for us? Floating? :-)

I guess my point is that for each piece of "life-improving" advice there's a counter ... I don't really have much of silver lining to offer :-/. I guess we are all different and need to find through time, enormous effort and trial and error, the sweet spot of a routine that works for us.

1: https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/

2: https://www.cheetahhouse.org/faq

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_desk#Effect_on_health

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#16

Post by lambdaloop »

I've tried beeminder and other self-binding contracts, but after some time something in my life (moving, breakup, etc) pops up and I just can't fulfill the goal for 1-2 weeks. After I let it slip for a bit, I find it harder to come back and it feels that the contract loses some meaning.

For any system I've tried, it consistently falls after 3-4 months of use (this is beeminder, spreadsheets, text files, among others).

Does anyone have suggestions for how to keep going after a setback?

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#17

Post by dreeves »

lambdaloop wrote: post #16

I've tried beeminder and other self-binding contracts, but after some time something in my life (moving, breakup, etc) pops up and I just can't fulfill the goal for 1-2 weeks. After I let it slip for a bit, I find it harder to come back and it feels that the contract loses some meaning. For any system I've tried, it consistently falls after 3-4 months of use (this is beeminder, spreadsheets, text files, among others)…

First question: did you know that with Beeminder you can schedule arbitrary breaks in your commitment/graph? They do have to be scheduled with a week of lead time. (Of course you can also take the hit and get, by default, a week of respite after derailing. Our most hardcore users find that worthwhile sometimes and explains how Beeminder makes money even (especially) from our most successful users. I know that seems ironic or paradoxical for those first encountering Beeminder!)

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#18

Post by lambdaloop »

dreeves wrote: post #17
lambdaloop wrote: post #16

I've tried beeminder and other self-binding contracts, but after some time something in my life (moving, breakup, etc) pops up and I just can't fulfill the goal for 1-2 weeks. After I let it slip for a bit, I find it harder to come back and it feels that the contract loses some meaning. For any system I've tried, it consistently falls after 3-4 months of use (this is beeminder, spreadsheets, text files, among others)…

First question: did you know that with Beeminder you can schedule arbitrary breaks in your commitment/graph? They do have to be scheduled with a week of lead time. (Of course you can also take the hit and get, by default, a week of respite after derailing. Our most hardcore users find that worthwhile sometimes and explains how Beeminder makes money even (especially) from our most successful users. I know that seems i…

Yes, when I was using beeminder, I both set scheduled breaks and also got hit and got a break. I'd say the issue would be 50/50 planned/unplanned, but I didn't always plan appropriately so I got hit more often than scheduled.

I did use beeminder for 3-4 months at a time, with great benefit! But looking back at every goal I set, it starts slipping past the 3-4 month mark. I got similar results with other systems (like the Lights spreadsheet from ultraworking or keeping a journal in text files), although without the nice beeminder charts..

I'm not sure, do other people see these patterns with their goals? Are there any tricks for fighting this late slippage?

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#19

Post by DoreenMichele »

lambdaloop wrote: post #16

I've tried beeminder and other self-binding contracts, but after some time something in my life (moving, breakup, etc) pops up and I just can't fulfill the goal for 1-2 weeks. After I let it slip for a bit, I find it harder to come back and it feels that the contract loses some meaning. For any system I've tried, it consistently falls after 3-4 months of use (this is beeminder, spreadsheets, text files, among others)…

What are some examples of goals you set and couldn't follow through on? I think specific examples might help get better answers.

Re: How to Do What You Want: Akrasia and Self-Binding (2011)

#20

Post by nextaccountic »

emmanueloga_ wrote: post #15
reagle wrote: post #8

I wrote about this here https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/94tu3rlx/release/2

* Regarding "life-hacking": "In an effort to keep up with a world of too much, life hackers sometimes risk going too far" [1] * Regarding "meditation": "The Varieties of Contemplative Experience Study catalogued 59 different types of meditation-related experiences that can be distressing or associated with impairment in functioning." ... " As many as 1 in 4 meditators reports negative or unwanted effects from meditat…

Your [2] link is from a site that offers paid consultations for meditators in distress.. do you have a source from a site that doesn't stand to profit from those statements?
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