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Speaking of the British

c.moreover.com

21–30 of 82 posts

Re: Speaking of the British

#21
This is a really horrible article, and it's clear that the author doesn't have a great grasp of English culture by the bad generalisations he makes.

While I haven't bothered with University, I did go to an expensive private school (a step below the likes of Eton) (fees paid by a scholarship), and I have had some links to Oxford University which technically make me an alumnus of an Oxford college and gave me the experience of the university without having studied there (long story). So I'm pretty familiar with the people this article is trying to talk about. For example I have been in the same class as the son of Peter Hitchens, the brother of Christopher who is mentioned as an example in the article, and also the same class as a boy from the Getty family.

Overall, I would say that as a country we value talking and arguing highly as skills, more so than many countries. It definitely becomes more noticeable the higher you climb on the social ladder, but that is generally just because the better educated you are, the more practise you get and the more you learn. It's not that middle/upper class education teaches people these things, it's just that, as with all subjects, private education tends to give people an easier ride.

The idea that at OxBridge it's more about talking than knowing. This was much more true before I was born, a few decades ago. It's certainly what many people who went to those universities in the 50s-70s would say.

"Traditionally, elite Britons then leave education aged 21." That has nothing to do with being "elite", simply that the majority of people who go to university don't study past their BA.

"When Tony Blair hinted that Iraq’s 'weapons of mass destruction' could hit London within 45 minutes, the establishment mostly believed him." Actually a huge number of us didn't believe him, but we blamed it on lies rather than mathematical difficulty. Many of us took to the streets in protest against these lies.

"Educated Americans would often praise Blair for arguing the case better than President Bush could." If you have to draw comparison with GWB to prove that someone is good at arguing a case then you've lost the argument already. I don't know a single working class person who doesn't manage to appear more engaged when speaking than Bush.

"But in general, Britain’s ruling classes are funny speakers." Nonsense. Britain as a whole tends to have a sense of humour, in my experience the upper middle class has less humour than lower classes.

"It was the urge to amuse that recently prompted Cameron to riff on an old TV ad and..." It wasn't the urge to amuse, and anyone who tries to suggest that Cameron, or frankly any of our leading politicians, has a sense of humour, hasn't spent enough time listening to them talk. That was Cameron's attempt to appear hip and youthful.

"Admittedly, ignorance sometimes saves Britain’s rulers from error." How can such a claim be made without given a single example or a single piece of logic to justify it. I don't know if it's a good or a bad point because, without any context, I've no idea what he's even trying to say.

Re: Speaking of the British

#22

I'm british, but I have to say; this article is utter arse gravy of the highest order.

I'm also English. Calling something 'utter arse gravy of the highest order' isn't a particularly informative form of criticism.

It is a rather English insult, though.

Re: Speaking of the British

#24
post #23

So for those of us who didn't go to oxbridge and didn't acquire this valuable skill, how do we acquire it as adults?

I'm pretty sure that if you put on an upper class accent (think Hugh Laurie) that would be enough to make the author of this article assume that you have the skill.

Re: Speaking of the British

#25
post #24
post #23

So for those of us who didn't go to oxbridge and didn't acquire this valuable skill, how do we acquire it as adults?

I'm pretty sure that if you put on an upper class accent (think Hugh Laurie) that would be enough to make the author of this article assume that you have the skill.

Tragically, I'm from Liverpool. He'd more than likely suspect me of pinching his hubcaps.

Re: Speaking of the British

#26
post #10

This phenomenon isn't limited to England. The one thing all Harvard undergrads learn (probably as much from one another as from the professors) is how to defend themselves in conversation. Some are smart, and some aren't, but by the time they graduate they all know how to sound smart.

I can vouch for it being present in France too. One of the best schools, Science Po Paris, has a widely known (in France) exam that used to be broadcasted on TV. It's called the "grand oral", all students are together in an amphithéâtre and they pass one by one on stage. Several professors are there with one declared purpose: to make them trip by whatever means short of screaming at them. A legendary exchange took place once, a student (obviously some future minister) was asked the depth of the Danube, and without missing a beat retorted "Under what bridge Sir ?"

The point being, geography was surely not his subject, but he was supposed to be able to "talk through it".

Re: Speaking of the British

#27

As the old joke (fact?) goes, Sir Winston Churchill was giving a speech in the House of Commons and someone nearby noticed that there was a handwritten comment in the margin of his notes: "Weak argument: talk loudly."

Meaning that Sir Winston Churchill had a great sense of humor.

Re: Speaking of the British

#28
post #24
post #23

So for those of us who didn't go to oxbridge and didn't acquire this valuable skill, how do we acquire it as adults?

I'm pretty sure that if you put on an upper class accent (think Hugh Laurie) that would be enough to make the author of this article assume that you have the skill.

You mean RP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

Re: Speaking of the British

#29
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that if you put on an upper class accent (think Hugh Laurie) that would be enough to make the author of this article assume that you have the skill.

You mean RP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

I've never actually heard that term before, though I am familiar with it being called the Queen's English, and BBC and Oxford English.

But commonly it would be considered "upper class" within England, and probably considered "English" outside the UK.

Re: Speaking of the British

#30
This is hilarious :) I honestly thought it was a joke... but now I am uncertain.. he seems to genuinely think that Britain is like this :S

The best bit is the wonderful caricature of Oxbridge interviews, as if the modern world is left behind once you step foot in those hallowed halls :D One guy at our school that went to Oxford worked like absolute hell to get his grades, pass his entrance exam and pass the exhausting round of interviews (2 days, testing all sorts of aptitidue).

Sure; the colleges have a tradition of "sprawling on sofa's" while enjoying a glass of the good stuff. But it is just tradition!

Aged 18, perhaps hungover, you read out your pitiful but elegant essay. The tutor points out gaps in your knowledge. For an hour, you talk your way around those gaps.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Ahem. All of the friends I have that went to a really top flight university (Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, etc) were basically working flat out for their exams from about January every year..

(I was the drunkard.. see "winging it" below)

Traditionally, elite Britons then leave education aged 21. Until recently they rarely bothered with graduate school.

Meh, classic nonsense confusion regarding the British and American educations systems.

Britain’s rulers still struggle to judge scientific arguments about nuclear energy or climate change

Very much struggling to see American, or indeed any other countries, "rulers" doing any better.

It was the urge to amuse that recently prompted Cameron to riff on an old TV ad and shout “Calm down, dear,” at a female Labour MP.

Failing to understand British humour, he only got it in the neck because at that level of politics you have to work with international norms.

Admittedly, ignorance sometimes saves Britain’s rulers from error.

And here we really get to the crux of it. We are not talking about "winging it", or an aptitude for rhetoric, but "ignorance". I'll be first to admit that the UK political elite are, to some extent, "clueless" on technical topics. But... how is that any different from any other politician in the world? Is that not why they have advisors? Hmmmm.

Nah, this is just some sneer-y anti-British hit piece. A caricature of the great and powerful of Britian as bumbling idiots who get by through a wing and a prayer.

But.

Winging it very much is a British tradition. One I have always been consistently proud of, because we tend to be fucking awesome at it. I winged it through school, university, life, career. And it works, brilliantly.

So, ba shucks ;)

I could go to America and make a casual, 2 second, assessment that the masses were pretty crass (seriously, the amount, scale and volume of advertising on your TV is terrible!), thick people and that the ruling elite were basically a bunch of manic argumentative idiots. Because they are the most vocal or visible types of people. I could go to France and make a similar assessment of the people there as rude and xenophobic. etc etc. But that would be a disgustingly shallow view. Quid Pro Quo. This is just thinly disguised xenophobia and the FT should be ashamed to print it.

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