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Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

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Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#61
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it was always my understanding that a PDO only/just forbids selling a good under a protected name/title, from another origin. I never expected that to include/extend to the production process, let alone for personal use. I thought these regulations were all about commercial trade, to protect local producers against (supposedly unfair) outside competition. I don't really see how demonstrating a production proces…

> Also, it was always my understanding that a PDO only/just forbids selling a good under a protected name/title, from another origin. This guy wasn't selling, he was just making a video. It seems PDO allows censure of media as well.

> It seems PDO allows censure of media as well.

That is, assuming this recourse was (legally) valid in the first place. I'm not sure of that.

I have no more than a laymen's understanding of these rules, but I at least expect that they apply to commercial entities (businesses) and not private individuals. This is an important distinction, which these days is often ignored/overlooked by many. Probably not in the least become so many people actually run (freelance) businesses as individuals, more often than not bordering on illegality, if not actually (unenforced) illegally. Much of that depends on national/local laws though.

Maybe the plaintiff does see it as YouTube being a business, or the person making these videos doing this professionally (if there's any money being made from the videos, it sort of is), but neither of those two business are (professionally) producing the protected product in question (let alone commercially sell it).

If the PDO regulations actually allow/warrant this action, then I'd argue that this goes way beyond the original intent and mandate of this PDO doctrine. Sadly, it would not be a first for an idea being (politically) adopted and then substantially changed/extended before being implemented into actual law/regulation. But with the (at best questionable) culture of lobbying going around in Brussels, that can hardly come as a surprise.

Maybe the lawmakers who voted in favor of this doctrine should be asked if this is what they actually voted for. It might just annoy them, being "harassed" (if not insulted) with such "unimportant incidents", but that might be just what is needed here. If this is unforeseen/unintended (ab)use of these regulations, it is most likely to stop when lawmakers get annoyed/pissed off and demand some kind of public statement, saying that this is not what is supposed to happen under this doctrine.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only call it that if you make it there and have a licence.

This sounded really silly to me at first, but I guess it’s not much different than a company holding a trademark?

This is how we have protected products here in Europe - hundreds of cheeses, salamis, balsamico di modena, well basically anything with any history.

It doesn't prevent copies, ie french/non local Swiss Gruyere, but its clear when you're buying it (AOP sign in the case of Gruyere).

I don't see a problem with it - you have variety of selection, competition is not stiffled, but if you want traditional original one, you can navigate the market without being an expert on every item.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but doesn't adding 'style' shove it firmly into fair use?

Well to start he didn't write "style" on the video screenshot preview, he just wrote Grana Padano. Also he could have made a video generically called "How to make parmesan style cheese" but he decided instead to use the very specific protected product Grana Padano. To me it doesn't seem fair use and there is a monetary incentive for the youtuber to use the term Grana Padano to have more views and/or get paid more by…

I'm not a lawyer here either but this situation appears pretty common overall. Do a google search for 'KFC recipe' and there's no shortage of sites showing you how to make KFC style fried chicken, many using an alleged leaked list of ingredients. It just seems if it was illegal they wouldn't be able to do that but again IANAL and this is based on observational conjecture. Maybe it being a foreign company under different laws has something to do with it.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#64
post #4

>your video seems to describe how to create counterfeited replicas of Grana Padano. I think that's a valid take. If someone made a video "How to make your own Rolex style watch" that are from 3d printed parts and works and looks like a Rolex then I guess they would also get a same c&d letter. Also I'm 100% behind protecting this restricted foods [0]. At least it's something against globalization (the guy is from Aust…

Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive : forged [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/counterfeit]

Teaching how to produce something that is like (or even identical) to something else is not an act of deception.

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(I am not a lawyer, but have some familiarity with "IP" law. What follows is my understanding of United States laws on the matter.)

Making reproductions, or teaching how to, is not allowed under some circumstances (for example, if the thing being reproduced is protected by patents) but is allowed under others (for example, teaching how to duplicate a copyrighted work of art generally falls under fair use).

For your Rolex example, it depends on what Rolex is being duplicated, but your scenario could possibly be legal. Rolex watches can be protected by utility patents, design patents, and trademarks. Utility patents cover specific useful, novel, and non-obvious mechanical features of the watch. (ELI5 version: they protect the parts inside the watch.) Design patents cover similarly-specific ornamental features of the watch. (ELI5 version: they protect the look of the outside of the watch.) Both of these patents expire (after 20 and 15 years, respectively). After this period, all mechanical aspects of the watch, inside and out, become public property. The remaining protection on producing exact replicas of the watch are trademark protections. These specifically cover the "Rolex" and rolex "crown" marks on the watch. Trademarks protection can potentially last forever; Rolex seems unlikely to lose theirs any time soon.

Based on this understanding, it would be quite legal to publish instructions describing exactly how to reproduce Rolex watches that are greater than 20 years old, with the limitation that you should not mark your reproductions with Rolex's mark (the name or the crown). A perfect reproduction of a 50-year-old Rolex, marked with, say, a paper hat and the word "fohless", would not infringe on any of Rolex's rights.

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For what it's worth, I am not 100% behind Protected Geographical Status. The part I am behind is the protection of the identity of products with specific, intrinsically-local characteristics. The Wikipedia article opens with roquefort cheese as an example: it is made from specific things in a specific way in a specific place, and all three of those things make it what it is.

However, using the same-or-similar things in the same-or-similar way in a different place can produce products which are varyingly different or identical to the original. For products as old or common as cheese, there is nothing stopping somebody from doing this -- that's why can imitations exist. However, I think it is important to be able to express that something is an imitation, and outright backwards to prohibit it. If I like a cheese, how am I to learn of the more-accessible (and maybe preferable) imitations, or of the Protected legacy cheese it imitates? Imitating connects the prior art and the derivative in an intrinsic way, but these regulations prohibit this connection from its most visible location: the labeling on the objects themselves. The relationship may then only reside within the objects, which require means (money, and opportunities to purchase or order) and action (eating) to access, or in unrelated objects: lists, registries, the words and minds of the eaters. Practically, this makes it difficult to learn about cheese, because the actions necessary for doing the learning have been highly divorced from the actions necessary for eating.

Intellectually, western society seems to have agreed that we should know what we eat, and so required that foods be labeled with lists of their enumerated and nutritional content. I agree with this sentiment. Western culture was tremendously shaped by the Enlightenment, and it is in the spirit of the Enlightenment to know and understand what goes into your body. But there is more to foods than just what they are -- there is also why they are. Foods have legacies inside them, and that plays just as big of a role in shaping what goes into your body as does the availability of wheat, salt, and Red Dye #40. Limiting the proclamation or legacy is contrary to the rediscovery, free exchange, and new understanding of old knowledge, and therefore seems, to me, to be against a major spirit in our shared society.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#65
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but doesn't adding 'style' shove it firmly into fair use?

Well to start he didn't write "style" on the video screenshot preview, he just wrote Grana Padano. Also he could have made a video generically called "How to make parmesan style cheese" but he decided instead to use the very specific protected product Grana Padano. To me it doesn't seem fair use and there is a monetary incentive for the youtuber to use the term Grana Padano to have more views and/or get paid more by…

Agreed if he didn't use style.

On the flip side though, there is difference between the different Parmesan cheeses, so potentially he was trying to be accurate.

It really depends on whether people are going to YouTube and searching 'How to make Grana Padano' or just happening across the video and clicking in, and at that point how much difference the work Grana Padano has to Parmesan in terms of whether people would watch it. I don't know the answer to that.

I'm in favour of protecting origin terms, but it really should apply to the sale of items rather than home hobbies. Sure this guy is potentially making money adjacent to that by explaining HOW to do the hobby, but he's not making and selling Grana Padano (I haven't watched his channel before, so correct me if wrong).

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#66
post #59

I had no idea that Grana Padano was a PDO. I can't help but feel that going around cease and desisting people that are passionately pursuing hobbies is a really bad idea. It reminds me of when the word Champagne was taken to court. The court ruled that the word could only be used by wine makers in the given region. What this resulted in was not I believe good for the Champagne region, despite the intent. The mind sha…

Champagne continues to maintain a pretty solid price premium though? The case of Moet-Chandon is instructive: the French variety usually retails for a solid $20/bottle more than Chandon's Australian or Californian wines, even though they're all made by the same house and the same methode champenoise.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a trademark, it's a Protected Designation of Origin (PDO). Similar but not the same and I'm not aware of an area being required to exercise their PDO to keep it.

It's both. They say they have relevant trademarks registered in Australia (where this guy is).

I guess because PDO is only in the EU?

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#68
post #43

I think it's important to notice that the point is not to keep how to make the cheese secret. The recipe for the cheese is actually encoded in the law, and you can download it freely ( https://www.parmigianoreggiano.com/it/consorzio-disciplinare... , in italian). During lockdown I was trying to make a regional cheese, and the law was the best recipe I could find, with extremely detailed steps. I think they are trying…

> trying to discourage the usage of "something style" naming

The law prohibits exactly this. From the Wikipedia article [1]:

[Under Protected Geographical Status laws] it is also prohibited to combine the indication with words such as "style", "type", "imitation", or "method" in connection with the protected indications

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#69
post #49

Also the youtuber set the video preview screenshot to showing only an image with written "Grana padano" https://www.youtube.com/c/GavinWebber/search?query=grana%20p... It seems to me the youtuber is clearly exploiting the name Grana Padano to gain views. As much as Trademarks can't be used freeily by other users so you can't use products of Denominazione di Origine Controllata (Controlled Origin Denomination). Imagin…

IANAL but doesn't adding 'style' shove it firmly into fair use?

[deleted]

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#70
post #59

I had no idea that Grana Padano was a PDO. I can't help but feel that going around cease and desisting people that are passionately pursuing hobbies is a really bad idea. It reminds me of when the word Champagne was taken to court. The court ruled that the word could only be used by wine makers in the given region. What this resulted in was not I believe good for the Champagne region, despite the intent. The mind sha…

Champagne continues to maintain a pretty solid price premium though? The case of Moet-Chandon is instructive: the French variety usually retails for a solid $20/bottle more than Chandon's Australian or Californian wines, even though they're all made by the same house and the same methode champenoise .

But that's exactly my point. I hear people talking about bottles of 'Moet', not champagne.

I've been given or bought several Moet-Chandon bottles over the years, and I would not be able to tell you with certainty whether they were filled with wine from the Champagne region. Anecdotal for sure.

I would also argue that you could use any reasonably French sounding place name, 'Trois-Rivières' and people would make assumptions.

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