Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics • Hacker News Board

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#61

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #59

renewiltord wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR does not use ownership semantics. There are "data subjects", "processors", "controllers" and they each interact with "personal data" in some way. Then certain restrictions are enforced on processors and controllers with data subjects having certain rights recognized. The rights and restrictions differ from ownership semantics sufficiently that it's not useful to talk about as owning.

Yes, this is why I'm careful to limit my criticism specifically to the belief that information can be "owned." That's subtly different from the belief that we can make contracts around information. But if you ask the average layperson or watch popular media about data, they speak and think in terms of ownership . That's the wrong model, and it leads to the wrong assumptions and conclusions. From what I understand, th…

Ah, I see. Okay, yeah, I think we're in agreement then. OP article is about GDPR-based suit.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#62

Post by julesnp » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #37

notahacker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think proving a specific instance of lost sponsorship income to the satisfaction of a court is going to be extraordinarily difficult, especially if the argument is that consumers draw more adverse inferences from commercial datasets (which they generally don't have access to themselves; betting companies use them to help set the odds) than watching the matches. Even more so when the context is that virtually any em…

You can demonstrate harm without showing specific damages. Damaging someone’s reputation for example isn’t acceptable. It’s the same basic principle as speeding or drunk driving being illegal even if nobody was actually harmed, putting people at significant risk of harm is not acceptable.

Isn't the harm to the players' reputations coming from their own quality of play in publicly viewed matches?

In my opinion a third party would only be liable for harming their reputation if the statistics being published were untrue.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#63

Post by darkerside » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

jb775 wrote: post #47

haubey wrote: post #7

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm especially not a British lawyer, but I do have an Athletic subscription. The article discusses a lawsuit on behalf of Primer League and mostly lower league soccer players in England around their "personal data." > More than 400 current and former players have signed up to pursue gaming, betting and data-processing companies who utilise their personal statistics without consent or compensatio…

> facts are not copyrightable This is the nail in the coffin. Imagine the lengths lawyers would go if they could monetize any abstract reference to something.

Can't tell if serious or sarcastic in reference to copyrighted code

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#64

Post by boomboomsubban » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

wolco2 wrote: post #31

boomboomsubban wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Proving actual instances of harm suffered from the dissemination of unfavourable statistics is also going to be tricky (even though there are undoubtedly players that have lost out). All you would need is one club saying they searched the data for say "any player over six foot" and one player who fit the search term but the data was inaccurate.

That would only count toward one person one club not a widespread pattern.

While I was being extreme, showing that similar searches happen often and errors are somewhat common makes the case.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#65

Post by yummypaint » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

jb775 wrote: post #47

haubey wrote: post #7

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm especially not a British lawyer, but I do have an Athletic subscription. The article discusses a lawsuit on behalf of Primer League and mostly lower league soccer players in England around their "personal data." > More than 400 current and former players have signed up to pursue gaming, betting and data-processing companies who utilise their personal statistics without consent or compensatio…

> facts are not copyrightable This is the nail in the coffin. Imagine the lengths lawyers would go if they could monetize any abstract reference to something.

There are patents on large portions of the human genome as it exists in nature

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#66

Post by orf » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #50

Can we change the "Players"in the title to "Soccer Players"? Otherwise, I'd guess most people would think of videogame players.

Football players, but yes.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#67

Post by nickff » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #60

jb775 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> facts are not copyrightable This is the nail in the coffin. Imagine the lengths lawyers would go if they could monetize any abstract reference to something.

The results of my last STD test and the transaction history of my bank account are also facts. We have decided some facts deserve specific protections, at least in the US. So I don't think we can dismiss the players here with "facts are not copyrightable" without knowing what specific statistics are being recorded and to which the players reject. Sports technology has exploded over recent years and the data collectio…

Those facts (STD test result and banking history) are protected by laws and private agreements which restrict your counter-parties; my understanding is that if some third party somehow learns those facts, they can do basically whatever they want with them (aside from blackmail).

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#68

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

haubey wrote: post #7

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm especially not a British lawyer, but I do have an Athletic subscription. The article discusses a lawsuit on behalf of Primer League and mostly lower league soccer players in England around their "personal data." > More than 400 current and former players have signed up to pursue gaming, betting and data-processing companies who utilise their personal statistics without consent or compensatio…

Do you need to license anything to do a radio broadcast of a game? All it’s doing is reporting the facts.

I suspect it’s less immediately dismissible than you suggest.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#69

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #56

The belief that information and ideas should be "owned" as if they are physical property is insidious, was always going to lead to absurd lawsuits like this, and will lead to worse in the future. Information is non-rivalrous. It cannot be "stolen" in the same way that, say, an apple can. If I take your apple, you no longer have it. If someone repeats your information, you haven't been deprived of it. These athletes a…

We live in a knowledge economy. If I spend $200M making a movie and you start showing it in your theaters without paying me, saying that you aren’t depriving me of my copy is irrelevant.

The property you’re talking about is orthogonal to questions about who has the right to control what information.

Re: Players to sue for hundreds of millions over use of their statistics

#70

Post by bosie » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #67

slg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results of my last STD test and the transaction history of my bank account are also facts. We have decided some facts deserve specific protections, at least in the US. So I don't think we can dismiss the players here with "facts are not copyrightable" without knowing what specific statistics are being recorded and to which the players reject. Sports technology has exploded over recent years and the data collectio…

Those facts (STD test result and banking history) are protected by laws and private agreements which restrict your counter-parties; my understanding is that if some third party somehow learns those facts, they can do basically whatever they want with them (aside from blackmail).

are you saying that if i happen to stumble onto a data leak of those private facts, i can use them to create a non-blackmailing (non-profit?) business?