How to Beat High Airfares • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#121

Post by BrandonM » Fri, May 06, 2011, 3:32 PM UTC

rexreed wrote: post #90

kd0amg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

about a 350 mile trip, 20 miles per gallon That would be 17.5 gallons each way, not 30. The round trip is then 35 gallons, which should easily be less than three 15-gallon tanks. Even 450 miles each way fits in three tanks. Only for short trips does driving beat the cost of flying I don't know how much you can stick to highways on that DC-Boston route, but when I drive down to visit my parents, each way is 400 miles…

In my case, I need to refill my 15 gallon tank 3 times for the whole roundtrip. So, my best case is 45 gallons, which at $4/gal is $180. It's true I'm left with some gas at the end, so perhaps that skews the calculation. If I could refill it with just enough, I could shave some bucks. But I prefer not to return home on empty fumes. Next time you do the trip - calculate the cost. You'll see it's closer to the best air…

Why are you calculating based on number of tanks of fuel used when you can instead calculate the exact number of gallons? Obviously you have some fuel left when you get home; that doesn't count as part of the cost of travel because you'll then use it in your normal course of affairs.

You've ignored the costs (both monetary and opportunity) of renting a vehicle or using public transit while in the destination city as opposed to having your own vehicle there. You've also ignored the potential harm of being confined to a cabin with scores of people who might be carrying airborne pathogens. You haven't considered the emotional cost of being subjected to an invasive search at the airport, or the stress of getting to your gate on-time.

To be clear, I am not anti-flying. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when it's more economically rational for a single individual to drive 450 miles each way than it is to fly. Get a more efficient car, add another person or two, require some bags, or plan an extended stay, and anywhere within a 12-to-24-hour driving radius becomes an economically irrational flight.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#122

Post by tptacek » Fri, May 06, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #112

OstiaAntica wrote: post #5

This is unethical, basically he calls for jumping off of flights at layovers, which violates the terms of the ticket. There's even a security issue for the airlines, because they need to check if your bags are flying unaccompanied. Ironic that the NYT cracks down on people evading its paywall but is selling content on doing the same for air travel.

Is this any more unethical than ordering a #6 combo at McDonald's and not eating the fries... just because you calculated that for some reason the drink + sandwich cost more than the #6? Even if McDonald's put in big bold letter, "You must eat everything you order or else"? I don't see why you are obliged to use more of the service than you want to. If I buy a train ticket from DC-Boston and hop off in NYC, no one's…

It is the same kind of "unethical" as deliberately buying and throwing away food; it's just a large difference of degree.

Incidentally, note that the same airline pricing quirk you'd be exploiting to save ~$100 is also costing other people on the plane; it's not quite a zero sum game, but has some of the same dynamics, as prices rise with occupancy on planes.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#123

Post by alienfluid » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

yid wrote: post #87

alienfluid wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your name is even remotely "exotic" (and mine seems to be), good luck checking in online - apparently one way tickets trigger some alarm in the depths of DHS.

Is it the alien or the fluid that's more exotic? Or are we talking Mohammed or Ahmed?

Lol .. I haven't tried traveling with Alien Fluid yet, but will let you know how that goes ;). It's Ahmed that gets me caught up every time.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#124

Post by tibbon » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:22 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #122

tibbon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this any more unethical than ordering a #6 combo at McDonald's and not eating the fries... just because you calculated that for some reason the drink + sandwich cost more than the #6? Even if McDonald's put in big bold letter, "You must eat everything you order or else"? I don't see why you are obliged to use more of the service than you want to. If I buy a train ticket from DC-Boston and hop off in NYC, no one's…

It is the same kind of "unethical" as deliberately buying and throwing away food; it's just a large difference of degree. Incidentally, note that the same airline pricing quirk you'd be exploiting to save ~$100 is also costing other people on the plane; it's not quite a zero sum game, but has some of the same dynamics, as prices rise with occupancy on planes.

Wouldn't the real solution however be for the airlines to introduce pricing that didn't take an entire company of smart people (ITA) to understand?

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#125

Post by mavelikara » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:23 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #41

aboodman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has an example of saving $189 (about 50% of the published price of the ticket in question), and a post in this thread had an example of saving 500 euro on a transatlantic flight. So it's not always trivial amount of money.

How many man-minutes of inconvenience are you willing to create for random strangers for every dollar you can save for yourself? Come to think of it, this question is about as close to an objective measure of an individual's level of morality as we can get. Screw all theories of moral relativism; I can tell whether you're a good person or not by knowing how much money it would take to tempt you to leave an entire pla…

> Screw all theories of moral relativism; I can tell whether you're a good person or not by knowing how much money it would take to tempt you to leave an entire planeload of people sitting on the tarmac for an extra ten minutes.

I hope that the person at the airlines who came up with the pricing model is also bound by the same moral framework. Something like - how big a bonus does it need to tempt you in coming up with a scheme which robs thousands of customers of your employer an extra $5 for the next few years?

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#126

Post by OPAS_Advantage » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:52 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #96

mthoms wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the principle of charging the maximum price the market is willing to bear , would you consider it ethical for a company like Amazon to charge more or less based on the affluence of the billing zipcode for each customer? /honest question

They basically do this by country code. I find Amazon.de is cheaper for some a lot of things than Amazon.co.uk or Amazon.fr. Amazon.com has the lowest prices of them all. Its usually cheaper, and faster, for me to order books and gifts from the US site, pay international shipping and customs than it is to order from the local site, who may not get it for months if at all.

There are a lot of merchants on Amazon.com (the US site) that won't ship internationally. But you can still buy from them and get international shipping if you use a package forwarding service. Try http://bit.ly/gN2oGK You can save a ton of money for exactly the reasons you mentioned: prices on the US site are much cheaper, even with international shipping.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#127

Post by tptacek » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:52 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #124

tptacek wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the same kind of "unethical" as deliberately buying and throwing away food; it's just a large difference of degree. Incidentally, note that the same airline pricing quirk you'd be exploiting to save ~$100 is also costing other people on the plane; it's not quite a zero sum game, but has some of the same dynamics, as prices rise with occupancy on planes.

Wouldn't the real solution however be for the airlines to introduce pricing that didn't take an entire company of smart people (ITA) to understand?

No, because ethically, not liking the way somebody prices a good or service doesn't give you a free pass to abuse other consumers of those goods or services.

If you believe obtaining the best possible price for a service by inconveniencing other consumers is ethical, I can save us a protracted and boring argument by stipulating that there is then nothing unethical about hidden-city itineraries.

But if you don't think that, then let me warn you that the instinct to fob off responsibility for people's actions to the big faceless corporation is natural and understandable, but also very hazardous to your moral health.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#128

Post by mavelikara » Fri, May 06, 2011, 4:56 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #51

mthoms wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the principle of charging the maximum price the market is willing to bear , would you consider it ethical for a company like Amazon to charge more or less based on the affluence of the billing zipcode for each customer? /honest question

What's not ethical about it? No one is forcing you to buy. But it's probably not good business, since people get irritated by things like that and shop less.

OK, knowing this strategy employed by the seller, a buyer opened a PO Box at a near by less-than-affluent neighborhood and shipped her purchase there. Would you categorize this customer's behavior unethical?

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#129

Post by tibbon » Fri, May 06, 2011, 5:31 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #127

tibbon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the real solution however be for the airlines to introduce pricing that didn't take an entire company of smart people (ITA) to understand?

No, because ethically, not liking the way somebody prices a good or service doesn't give you a free pass to abuse other consumers of those goods or services. If you believe obtaining the best possible price for a service by inconveniencing other consumers is ethical, I can save us a protracted and boring argument by stipulating that there is then nothing unethical about hidden-city itineraries. But if you don't think…

I'm still not sure why it's a big deal if I get off a plane at a stop, but getting off a train isn't a big deal.

They could always allow some way for you to inform them, "I'm leaving, don't wait for me." (or simply you could just go to that gate and tell them. That way they aren't holding the plane, and no one else is at a loss. You don't inconvenience anyone else, except maybe a few confused people working at the gate.

None of this still solves the issue that airlines don't have transparent pricing. If restaurants acted like airlines, you'd have people in the same place paying anywhere from $5 to $200 for the same meal, and you'd be unsure of one day to the next how much they'll be charging. You could even pay for your meal upfront, only to find that they 'oversold' the meals and you'll have to go hungry.

If you want to talk about unethical, let's talk about inconveniencing customers by overselling flights.

Re: How to Beat High Airfares

#130

Post by tptacek » Fri, May 06, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #129

tptacek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because ethically, not liking the way somebody prices a good or service doesn't give you a free pass to abuse other consumers of those goods or services. If you believe obtaining the best possible price for a service by inconveniencing other consumers is ethical, I can save us a protracted and boring argument by stipulating that there is then nothing unethical about hidden-city itineraries. But if you don't think…

I'm still not sure why it's a big deal if I get off a plane at a stop, but getting off a train isn't a big deal. They could always allow some way for you to inform them, "I'm leaving, don't wait for me." (or simply you could just go to that gate and tell them. That way they aren't holding the plane, and no one else is at a loss. You don't inconvenience anyone else, except maybe a few confused people working at the ga…

You're changing the subject. It can be both bad that airline pricing isn't transparent and bad to exploit it to reduce your own fares at the expense of everyone else on the same route.

However, I will note that as annoying as airline pricing is, particularly to geeks but yes to everyone else too, they do serve a function of capturing revenue from customers who aren't price sensitive (biz travelers) and thus lowering fares for people who are very price sensitive (older leisure travelers). You would not be able to argue that airfares were "unethical" if they simply and "transparently" locked in a constant average fair $150 higher than the current bottom end price on Kayak, but the airlines would be making the same money.

For all the complaining and anger around airline pricing, it's also worth noting that these companies aren't Exxon; they aren't rolling in cash. Airlines go BK all the time. It's a tough business.