The section about hospitals on Cairo is interesting, universal free healthcare with lost wages covered. The healthcare may have been primitive but the policy goes further than what a lot of countries offer today.
Assuming you lived in Cairo
Al-Adudi Hospital
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Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#32I wonder if you could find hospitals today by hanging meat (or some sensors) around cities. Just as factories can issue clouds of soot or other pollution, could hospitals be emitting clouds of bacteria?
The article means "locating" in the sense of "where should it be placed", not "finding"—perhaps you knew that and were just riffing off the other meaning, since I had the same misunderstanding based off of the title.
Yes, I realized that (and I hoped by saying “hospitals today” it would be clear that I had read the article).
But I still wondered if my (and your) surmised interpretation would hold true. I think it is well understood (certainly is within the medical community) that hospitals are a dangerous place to be, though clearly if you’re seriously ill it’s worth the risk. But do hospitals pose a risk to their neighbours?
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#33> Within Baghdad, the Al-Adudi Hospital's location was decided upon by its administrator, Abu-Bakr al-Razi. He determined where it should be located by "hanging a piece of meat in several places for a few days and deciding in favor of the place where meat was found to be least infected." That is actually quite a clever idea. I wonder what factors would lead to one location having higher microbe density than others? P…
I assumed it was about flies, because maggots would be all over it in a couple of days.
Edit: since the chosen location was besides the Tigris river, maybe the river fauna acted as a natural pest control. Less flies and mosquitoes absolutely would help hygiene.
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#34Huh. That feels like potentially coming very close to germ theory.
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it's too far fetched to assume that the Al-Adudi Hospital was founded based on an nascent sense of Germ Theory. Allow me to explain: To quote the wikipedia source: "hanging a piece of meat in several places for a few days and deciding in favor of the place where meat was found to be least infected." Infected definition = "contaminated with an infective agent (such as a bacterium or virus)." I think they…
> Note that per [1] "Basic forms of germ theory were proposed in the late Middle Ages by physicians including Ibn Sina in 1025" Note that also per [1] germ theory was stated pretty well in the first century BC: > The Roman statesman Marcus Terentius Varro (116–27 BC) wrote, in his Rerum rusticarum libri III (Three Books on Agriculture, 36 BC): "Precautions must also be taken in the neighborhood of swamps […] because…
>This doesn't really differ from the germ theory of disease as we understand it today.
I disagree. Germ theory also covers stuff like non-airborne transmission (food/water/bodily fluids). The only thing that it got right is "you can get infected by invisible things in the air", but even then it's not that accurate. Do people really get sick from the air near swamps, or is it the mosquitoes?
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article means "locating" in the sense of "where should it be placed", not "finding"—perhaps you knew that and were just riffing off the other meaning, since I had the same misunderstanding based off of the title.
Yes, I realized that (and I hoped by saying “hospitals today ” it would be clear that I had read the article). But I still wondered if my (and your) surmised interpretation would hold true. I think it is well understood (certainly is within the medical community) that hospitals are a dangerous place to be, though clearly if you’re seriously ill it’s worth the risk. But do hospitals pose a risk to their neighbours?
Apologies—I couldn't tell, and I had that exact misunderstanding. That is an interesting question, though.
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#37This is a interesting because, while they may not have understood the science behind why the meat spoiled less, there may have been utility in this fact (if that location naturally had less bacteria). I wish the U.S. had performed this much thought with regard to COVID.
“ I wish the U.S. had performed this much thought with regard to COVID.” I don’t understand this side comment. What are you referring to? The supposed source (bats) came from an infested market in China, not the US
I'm referring to the fact that there was no national policy, enforcement and only a waffled set of guidelines. And moreso that the experts were pushed to the side for political expediency. As an aside, I'm a U.S. citizen and will publicly state that I'm going to do more to isolate (and we've already been on the more extreme edge of isolation). We should ALL do more.
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Note that per [1] "Basic forms of germ theory were proposed in the late Middle Ages by physicians including Ibn Sina in 1025" Note that also per [1] germ theory was stated pretty well in the first century BC: > The Roman statesman Marcus Terentius Varro (116–27 BC) wrote, in his Rerum rusticarum libri III (Three Books on Agriculture, 36 BC): "Precautions must also be taken in the neighborhood of swamps […] because…
>This doesn't really differ from the germ theory of disease as we understand it today. I disagree. Germ theory also covers stuff like non-airborne transmission (food/water/bodily fluids). The only thing that it got right is "you can get infected by invisible things in the air", but even then it's not that accurate. Do people really get sick from the air near swamps, or is it the mosquitoes?
> Germ theory also covers stuff like non-airborne transmission (food/water/bodily fluids).
First, that's not correct; the germ theory of disease is simply the statement that diseases are caused by germs as opposed to being caused in some other way. Transmission is not a part of it.
Second, if you believe that small creatures too small to see can make you sick if you inhale them, it's not really a stretch to think that those creatures can make you sick if they get into your body by any other means.
(Note that not all apparent diseases are caused by germs; some are caused by genetic conditions, some are caused by dietary deficiencies, some are caused by inorganic poisons, and some are caused by creatures which are easily large enough to see with the naked eye. Does this make the "germ theory of disease" incorrect?)
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#39Fascinating stuff. I wonder what kind of theory of disease they were working under
The same theory of flight that birds use to fly, i.e., none. Some birds might notice they use less energy if they don't flap their wings and instead catch an updraft. I don't think they need a theory of pressure gradients to exploit this phenomenon. They just have to feel it in their bones.
I know my response is glib, but no "theory of" is needed to do useful work. Humans can build intuitive understanding through personal experience, observation, and thinking. And they can pass some forms of this understanding via apprenticeship, laws, rules, organizational structures and cultural norms among other things.
Re: Al-Adudi Hospital
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
“ I wish the U.S. had performed this much thought with regard to COVID.” I don’t understand this side comment. What are you referring to? The supposed source (bats) came from an infested market in China, not the US
I'm referring to the fact that there was no national policy, enforcement and only a waffled set of guidelines. And moreso that the experts were pushed to the side for political expediency. As an aside, I'm a U.S. citizen and will publicly state that I'm going to do more to isolate (and we've already been on the more extreme edge of isolation). We should ALL do more.
This makes more sense than how I was trying to connect the dots for your original message. I couldn't agree more