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Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

nytimes.com

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Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#141

Post by michaniskin »

athriren wrote: post #128
michaniskin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nursing is not that complex. The bulk of the work can be offloaded on semi-skilled labor with on the job training. This is what the army does, it works fine. This is not rocket science here.

nursing is “not that complex” in the same sense that programming is “typing characters into a file”. my sister is doing critical care work as a nurse in a covid crisis zone earning less than 60K a year. this is with a decade of experience in some of the top hospitals in the country. i think HN has a very California/New York view of nurse’s compensation and status. her previous hospital responded to covid by firing a…

You edited your post, so I'll reply separately to the added content here.

The difference between the military and the healthcare system is that soldiers can't quit, but healthcare workers can.

Every single healthcare worker in America is working at that job because they prefer that job to all other alternative jobs available to them. This is trivially true because if they preferred another job they could quit and take that job.

Of course, we all have stress, and nobody likes their job, and everyone gripes and complains, and everyone's bosses are slave drivers, and everyone's customers are demanding. That's why it's a job and not a hobby.

I stand by my argument that most of the work of monitoring and caring for covid patients can be performed adequately by semi-skilled workers.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#143

Post by michaniskin »

dragontamer wrote: post #139
michaniskin wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think US healthcare spending dwarfs the defense budget by an order of magnitude. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

The US military is a system that converts high school students (of varying capabilities) into soldiers and officers. 1. You start with propaganda: movies and video games that show the military in a positive light, encouraging a number of impressionable kids to join the military. I'm not against propaganda btw, but I understand how it works: the modern military spends a lot of money on Call of Duty esports for example…

The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc.

If more workers are needed to care for covid patients then the wages will rise, and more workers will switch from other jobs to perform this work. Training people to empty bedpans, draw blood, monitor diagnostic equipment, and so on is not any more complex than what people learn in a code bootcamp, and code bootcamps are doing fine.

Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#144

Post by dragontamer »

michaniskin wrote: post #143
dragontamer wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military is a system that converts high school students (of varying capabilities) into soldiers and officers. 1. You start with propaganda: movies and video games that show the military in a positive light, encouraging a number of impressionable kids to join the military. I'm not against propaganda btw, but I understand how it works: the modern military spends a lot of money on Call of Duty esports for example…

The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc. If more workers are needed to care for covid patients then the wages will rise, and more workers will switch from other jobs to perform this work. Training people to empty bedp…

> The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc.

Look man, if you don't want me comparing nurses to the military, then don't bring it up in the first place (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289)

> This is what the army does, it works fine.

Your words, not mine. Find a better comparison. And no, I don't think your "helicopter pilot" argument is serious at this point. There's no way you actually consider helicopter pilots as important as nurses right now.

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> Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too.

If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. You can't just get "another nurse" to do their job (those nurses are also overworked and busy).

If a helicopter pilot quits their job, their passengers need to wait a few more days to find a new pilot.

I have my doubts you're serious with the helicopter discussion point. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#145

Post by zaroth »

acdha wrote: post #110
pb7 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nurses get paid hourly in most(?) places including generous overtime. Most professions get frequently overworked with little extra for that increase. Do you feel just as bad publicly for those folks as you do for nurses?

As it happens I do but that's also irrelevant: you aren't required to sort the list of problems in descending order and ignore everything but the first one. In the context of a conversation about nurses, it doesn't add anything to start “what about!” tangents.

What they’re paid is not irrelevant. There was basically a nationwide discussion on providing hazard pay to nurses at the onset of all this.

Solving the pay issue doesn’t mean the other issues don’t exist, but it is definitely important and noteworthy progress.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#146

Post by alistairSH »

BostonEnginerd wrote: post #83
alistairSH wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Thalidomide ring a bell? Because that's what happens with no regulation.

"The US FDA refused to approve thalidomide for marketing and distribution. However, the drug was distributed in large quantities for testing purposes, after the American distributor and manufacturer Richardson-Merrell had applied for its approval in September 1960.[citation needed] The official in charge of the FDA review, Frances Oldham Kelsey, did not rely on information from the company, which did not include any…

Yeah, it was a bigger problem in other countries. Point still stands - the Thalidomide birth defect crisis was largely a result of poor regulation for pharmaceuticals.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#147

Post by fairity »

908B64B197 wrote: post #142
908B64B197 wrote: post #91

For years they enabled the AMA to cap residency spots and created an artificial scarcity & drive prices up. Now they are whining that they are a scarce resource?

I see the downvotes but no explanations!

People who run high on empathy generally think those that who don't feel empathy are bad people. Based on your comment, they are assuming you don't feel empathy. And, downvoting you is their way of settling their negative judgment.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#148

Post by 908B64B197 »

fairity wrote: post #147
908B64B197 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the downvotes but no explanations!

People who run high on empathy generally think those that who don't feel empathy are bad people. Based on your comment, they are assuming you don't feel empathy. And, downvoting you is their way of settling their negative judgment.

Making healthcare a scarce resource isn't empathic either.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#149

Post by supercanuck »

zaroth wrote: post #113
supercanuck wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are interpreting as personal/emotional attacks, are people shocked and responding to OP's lack of empathy and disregard for human beings and our hospitals being staffed with overworked emotionally drained people, which affects us all but the OP is shifting the focus to, well at least some workers are making 10,000 more. I mean, I guess some people just need that spelled out to them due to their lack of abili…

That’s not what OP said. “I care that you're so insensitive that...” is not taking the most generous interpretation of OP’s comment and is absolutely a personal attack. It is not conducive to productive discussion. Nurses are being paid more. We can feel free to make an argument for why that doesn’t matter without personal insults.

That may not be what OP said directly but by prioritizing pay and following it up with

Lmao what's wrong downvoters? Don't like being told that nurses are making more than you?

... that is certainly what OP communicated!

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#150

Post by fairity »

908B64B197 wrote: post #148
fairity wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who run high on empathy generally think those that who don't feel empathy are bad people. Based on your comment, they are assuming you don't feel empathy. And, downvoting you is their way of settling their negative judgment.

Making healthcare a scarce resource isn't empathic either.

True but besides the point. They want a more forthright expression of empathy. If you simply prefaced your comment with “I really feel for our frontline workers.” they’d upvote you instead.
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