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Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

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Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#81

Post by oniTony »

smnrchrds wrote: post #55
dcolkitt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good paying jobs outside STEM. Finance, consulting, media, law (especially IP law if you have a bachelors in STEM), etc. If an engineering grad decides to become an actuary or management consultant or investment banker, that doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't find a STEM job.

Ontario Society of Professional Engineers did a study on engineering labour maker in Ontario 5 years ago. Their findings show that this is not the reason behind the majority of people with engineering degrees doing non-engineering work. I don't know how the results compare to those in the US or UK, but it certainly is an eye-opening data point. Some highlights: - According to the 2011 NHS, only 29.7 per cent (67,045…

This talks specifically about the regulated and licensed profession of “Engineering”, which excludes most of Software jobs.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#82

Post by i_haz_rabies »

troupe wrote: post #76
i_haz_rabies wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 9 week bootcamp and I've been a productive developer for 5 years now (I was an unproductive developer for the first year). I was incredibly lucky to find a company willing to take a chance on me, because I was completely useless at first. This is not an advisable strategy for changing careers, especially for someone with dependents.

Did you have much tech experience before the bootcamp?

Zero! I was a newspaper reporter.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#83

Post by i_haz_rabies »

unishark wrote: post #53
i_haz_rabies wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this passion argument accurate, yet distasteful. We as a society should not expect adults with dependents to do the "passionate, young, single developer" grind just to get a steady job because their old one is automated or outsourced. This is not healthy even for the stereotypical CS grad, much less your average out-of-work auto plant worker.

I think it's more about the energy level needed to get over the learning curve. Like learning a new language, if you aren't really serious it isn't going to happen, and going at it slower makes it take disproportionately longer, making it disproportionately more likely you'll get frustrated and give up before you succeed at it. As for younger versus older, I'd say this is a screening process that filters young people…

This is why I think on-the-job training is important. I know there isn't much of an economic argument for a company to take on older candidates and teach them how to be a productive developer, but maybe subsidies would help? I don't know, I just don't think we can reasonably expect people to retrain on their own time... especially if they're dealing with financial stress already.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#84

Post by dredmorbius »

freetime2 wrote: post #18

> Why, then, do policymakers and business leaders continue to focus on reskilling? Lafer thinks it gives them an easy way out by laying the blame for workers’ dim employment prospects on their failure to acquire the right skills rather than facing up to deeper structural changes in the economy. He says that a better option might be a push for better pay and conditions in other in demand industries that employ lots of…

WPA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/works-progre...

Government as employer of last resort.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#85

Post by jjav »

dcolkitt wrote: post #8

The biggest thing from the employer side is that the cost of a single bad hire can be potentially enormous. This is a combination of legal (threat of wrongful termination lawsuits, COBRA) and cultural (nobody likes to feel like a jerk boss, morale problems among the remaining employees). The rule of thumb among managers is don't hire anybody unless you're 90% sure they'll work out for at least a year. That creates a…

> What we need is another category of transitional employment, with both much lighter regulatory barriers to turnover

In the USA (based on COBRA mention I assume you're in the USA) employees can be let go for no reason whatsoever effective immediately and without any notice.

There can't possibly exist a "lighter regulatory barrier" than that!

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#86

Post by 908B64B197 »

clusterhacks wrote: post #79
908B64B197 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All these details seem to add up to a rather stark observation - there is NO shortage of highly qualified applicants for these types of jobs. Our geographic region has many tech employers so we aren't the only option for job seekers. We probably aren't even in the top 25% of employers for salary in our area. Where is that? > We are not a software company so we do not use deep algorithm testing as part of our evalua…

Middle-eastern United States area. Our rubric is for deciding who to interview. We definitely have new grads who have resumes with meaningful programming projects who get into the interview pool. We have hired new grads over experienced candidates on the strength of the interview. During an interview, we usually have a whiteboard abstract design and pseudo-code guided exercise. I also very much like to ask candidates…

> During an interview, we usually have a whiteboard abstract design and pseudo-code guided exercise. I also very much like to ask candidates to walk us through one of their projects and experience with that as well. Occasionally, someone who doesn't do very well with other parts of the interview will really open up on a school or personal project and show unexpected insight and ability.

That's the correct way of doing algorithmic screening. Relatively self-contained problem that has several possible solutions.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#87

Post by 908B64B197 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #6
HarryHirsch wrote: post #3

They bury the lede: "In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says" Also: "In a 2018 paper, he and colleagues showed that only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM, dropping to between 10 and 50% for those studying life sciences, physical sciences and maths."

In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says AND only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM I don't know man? The implication there is that there exist up to 30-40% of new computing and engineering grads who on the one hand are without jobs in STEM, and on the other are willing to leave the STEM jobs th…

It's even more fun when you look at data from elsewhere in the world.

I've worked with incredible engineers from France... here in America. And yet the other day there was this poster whining he couldn't find great engineering talent in France.

He blamed it on French people being lazy, of course.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#88

Post by 908B64B197 »

aroundtown wrote: post #77
granzymes wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. Could you expand on that?

Certainly, what I mean here is people that have been helped out to get where they are, then not pay it forward or in fact go out of their way to not help out their peers. I've seen this happen many times. Not just to friends, but co-workers and people that I have met along the way. In one case I had a friend who was hired by a former classmate to a local firm. After a year there they started hiring more programmers c…

I've seen the opposite.

Employee from University X would make a referral for everyone from University X that would apply. And let me just say the signal to noise ratio from that institution was horrible to say the least.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#89

Post by zamfi »

lordnacho wrote: post #64
zamfi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental problem is a lack of jobs, because there is no market mechanism by which the private sector will create sufficient jobs to hire everybody who wants work. This is an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence.

Actually it's phrased as a negative. Isn't it up to the positive side to come up with the evidence? Alternatively, pick it apart and expose it as a positive claim and ask for evidence.

How it’s phrased is irrelevant to who bears the burden of proof. You are the one making the claim, therefore the burden of proof is on you to back up your claim, no?

This is true regardless of how extraordinary the claim is. I find your claim that “markets cannot provide full employment” not at all obvious, regardless of phrasing, and am asking for evidence.

Your response suggests you don’t have any.

By this logic, if I say something like “there was no moon landing”, I could demand that you offer evidence to the contrary instead of offering any of my own.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#90

Post by 908B64B197 »

aroundtown wrote: post #24
bilbo0s wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says AND only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM I don't know man? The implication there is that there exist up to 30-40% of new computing and engineering grads who on the one hand are without jobs in STEM, and on the other are willing to leave the STEM jobs th…

One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care…

Where did you graduate from?

With a real CS degree?

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