A Worsening Culture War • Hacker News Board

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#231

Post by meekmind » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #224

meekmind wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will agree there is a degree of culpability in the general population and a preference to deflect blame on both sides. I would also agree that it is important to define what "rich" means since making class distinctions and comparisons does change the emphasis and logic considerably. That said, the (ultra) wealthy tend to profit either way and prefer chaos because it puts an incredible downward pressure on the class…

> That said, the (ultra) wealthy tend to profit either way and prefer chaos because it puts an incredible downward pressure on the classes below them. Is there any quantified evidence that supports this hypothesis? The corporations owned by the ultra wealthy spent a lot more money on backing Hilary and Biden rather than Trump.

All that says is dumping money into an election in a constitutional republic designed specifically to put limits on authoritarian power does not guarantee victory.

I'm comfortable saying there is considerable evidence to back up the argument. However, I suspect any researcher who put forth such a hypothesis might have difficulty finding a grant. Take from that what you will.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#232

Post by RichardCA » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

throwaway936482 wrote: post #180

ck425 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is the whole sale importation of the BLM movement to the UK. I'm not overly aware of the issue facing ethnic minorities in the UK (I live in Scotland where it's almost entirely white with some small asian communities, which isn't to say there isn't racism just few people to discuss it with personally) but from reading around racism in the UK is very different to the US. Despite this we've adopt…

Unfortunately the BLM rhetoric I the UK is largely pushed by a bunch of (usually white) middle class students with a hard on for Kimberlie Crenshaw and an utter ignorance of the work done over the last seventy years by black and ethnic minority British anti racists to tackle the racism in British society that arises from our history as a colonising nation. Ironically by privileging black American narratives over thos…

The average American doesn't even know who Kimberle Crenshaw is. For most of us BLM just means waiting for the next police shooting to show up in the news and on social media (because someone captured a video recording) and hoping our own nearby community isn't involved. Law enforcement in America is a web of federal, state, and local (city or county) laws and no one knows how any individual police officer is trained or what kind of accountability process is in place. The fact that it's different every single time is a huge part of the problem and a source of most of the frustration.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#233

Post by eznzt » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #44

eznzt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The craziest part of this american culture war, to me, is that it seems to spill over to the rest of the world. It does not seem so crazy to me, after decades of cultural imperialism from America, that we are mirroring the same patterns of behaviour and fighting the same battles. (Just to be clear, I'm not against imperialism) If American politics are straining your relationship with your sister and you are not even…

> Just to be clear, I'm not against imperialism As an aside - why? Imperialism seems like something one should obviously oppose. Who wants their lives governed by these forces?

Might is right.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#234

Post by lostcolony » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #222

lostcolony wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The top 1% in US pay more taxes in taxes than the bottom 90%" And yet the percentage is lower. It really doesn't matter the comparative amounts; to put this to an even more egregious extreme, if the top 1% had 99% of the wealth, and paid 20% of that in taxes, and the bottom 99% had the remaining 1% of the wealth, and paid 0 taxes, it's not a sign that all is well, and the fact that the rich are paying -all- the taxe…

Again, I would be happy with tax increases with the rich. My grip is this quote: "The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes..." It's blatantly untrue, as are most things comedians say, but Carlin somehow is treated like a scholar. The spamming of his quotes only adds fuel to the culture war. Consumerism is completely orthogonal to polarization. Video games…

It's hyperbole. To try and say "well, technically that's untrue" when it is -obviously- an exaggeration, and being exaggerated to make a point is...well, I see why you're criticizing most things comedians say. I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.

And, see how many corporations also funded Trump. Political polarization keeps people from seeing the robber barons that are benefiting in excess from others own hard work.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#235

Post by tpm » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #120

tpm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It exists mostly because of massive propaganda financed by very wealthy people for whom it is essential to indoctrinate masses to be even more wealthy and powerful.

I don’t understand how it’s propaganda when one can analyze labors laws in various jurisdictions and see that all the areas with labor laws better for workers and poorer people are mostly in areas governed by Democrats.

I obviously didn't mean the side that supports labor laws better for workers.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#236

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 8:00 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #190

hprotagonist wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>leaned heavily towards socialism and economic justice... Not to be too on the nose, but another equally valid phrase here is “leaned heavily towards being a christian minister”, which he was. The religious motivations of the civil rights movement are ones we seem blind to, and the only reason i can think of for it is that when i, an american, hear “christian”, i have been taught think “republican suburban or rural w…

The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support. Rural white Christians greatly outnumber urban Jewish Christians. Most major denominations discriminate against LGBT people. People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience. Some are and some aren't.

> Rural white Christians greatly outnumber urban Jewish Christians

Well, yeah, Jewish Christians, urban or rural, are pretty rare. Black and Hispanic Christians are more common. And if you look at regressive attitudes on race, it's mostly White Evangelic Protestants where those views are concentrated. White Catholics and White mainline protestants are fairly evenly split, and non-White Christians (what usually has big enough samples to show up in broad surveys are Hispanic Catholics and Black Evangelical Protestants) tip strongly the opposite direction as White Evangelical Protestants.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#237

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #50

eznzt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The craziest part of this american culture war, to me, is that it seems to spill over to the rest of the world. It does not seem so crazy to me, after decades of cultural imperialism from America, that we are mirroring the same patterns of behaviour and fighting the same battles. (Just to be clear, I'm not against imperialism) If American politics are straining your relationship with your sister and you are not even…

As a Canadian, I'm shocked at the attention the minutia of US politics gets in Canada. I was visiting family and watching the 6pm news and I'd say US politics dominates Canadian national news. It's not unusual for the first 20 min of a 30 min program to be nothing but US politics. Plenty of people say "well, what happens in the US is important to Canada", but what's covered is just stupid political bickering. And it'…

Ratings and possibly a good distraction from how things are at home as well. As an American, I could not believe how many people, also Americans, that I knew that were distraught over Brexit.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#238

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

dakna wrote: post #162

Roritharr wrote: post #9

The craziest part of this american culture war, to me, is that it seems to spill over to the rest of the world. My sister and I, living in Germany, have a very loving relationship, but we absolutely disagree on almost everything political and basically are stuck in our seperate bubbles. This gave us an interesting observation: 5 years ago it took us about two to three months, to have a fight over something that start…

I think what we see here is the result of social media A/B testing on how to get votes, and this playbook is now followed by the rest of the world. In a democratic society, you have to influence the public opinion to stay/get in power. Propaganda is free, information costs money. If the majority of voters are not willing to pay for quality journalism, you have to get them engaged by fueling outrage and projecting fea…

Who says that paying for journalism would fix this problem? Both CNN and FOX are cable news, not broadcast for free.

Go back to the start of the Second Gulf war and you had the NYT and other media outlets complicit in the WMD lies.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#239

Post by chrisjarvis » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #191

chrisjarvis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

both sides push for higher immigration and a globalized market, which have more effect on wage-earners in the US than any policy in "Democratic states". Imo you are missing the forest thru the trees, at scale they really are the same.

The evidence is that immigrants generate positive net tax benefits. The amount of immigrants who are founders of successful business would reflect that the impact is net positive. AFAIK the idea of immigrants impact being a net negative isn't supported by the studies I have read. I understand this isn't necessarily in line with the rhetoric du jour.

I never said or implied a NET negative. My comment was specifically talking about effects on wage earners in the US.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#240

Post by Aunche » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #234

Aunche wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I would be happy with tax increases with the rich. My grip is this quote: "The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes..." It's blatantly untrue, as are most things comedians say, but Carlin somehow is treated like a scholar. The spamming of his quotes only adds fuel to the culture war. Consumerism is completely orthogonal to polarization. Video games…

It's hyperbole. To try and say "well, technically that's untrue" when it is -obviously- an exaggeration, and being exaggerated to make a point is...well, I see why you're criticizing most things comedians say. I bet you're a lot of fun at parties. And, see how many corporations also funded Trump. Political polarization keeps people from seeing the robber barons that are benefiting in excess from others own hard work.

Nothing is wrong with a joke, but most people have difficulty separating entertainment from facts. No matter how often Rush Limbaugh says he's "just an entertainer," he's clearly misleading his audience. Also misleading is sandwiching a comedic rant between a serious article and a serious quote by MLK.

> And, see how many corporations also funded Trump

Corporations aren't a unified block. Biden got over half a billion more in funding, which is telling.

> Political polarization keeps people from seeing the robber barons that are benefiting in excess from others own hard work.

This is a narrative invented because if people find a purpose to polarization, they can blame someone else besides themselves. What is the greatest distraction from the proletariat rising up against the "robber barrons?" It's Netflix, not Fox News. Without polarization, people won't suddenly be plotting about how to take down the rich. They'll go back to rewatching the Office. If anything, polarization brings more attention to class issues.