Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty • Hacker News Board

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#51

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

I'll do it. Lots of the things they can do can be outsourced to a cheaper less-trained individual. I know because the sleep deprivation means half of them are working at the capacity of a drunk version of me. The number of mistakes surgical assistants make that surgeons have to watch out for is quite something. Veteran surgeons like my parents have top notch surgical teams they've cultivated over time. But most surgeries aren't performed by veterans.

American society is unable to use versatile individuals because it is advanced: sophisticated power structures have powerful propaganda arms that block efficient utilization.

Many things in life have transferable skills. Big parts about being a Registered Nurse are just being meticulous and memorizing large quantities of information: both things people like me are exceptional at.

And my tolerance for risk is high. I'd smokejump if you needed me, I'd work on COVID patients if you needed me. With my own PPE if you so desire. But you won't. Because let's be honest, there are those who want to preserve the order for their own reasons, those who want to live in interesting times, and those who fear change.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#52

Post by jorblumesea » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

n0us wrote: post #42

Man, this thread really bringing out the worst of Hackernews and its so disappointing but unfortunately not surprising to see the complete lack of capacity for empathy from some of the other heavily downvoted commenters. Almost everyone who participates on this site is well educated and fortunate enough to understand that people have been putting their lives on the line for months on end to help people through this c…

HN users are generally well compensated and largely disconnected from the trials and tribulations of many healthcare workers and normal people. Tech is a bubble in many ways.

The disconnect between tech, tech salaries and "how the other half lives" has always shocked me. People who have never worked in a restaurant legitimately questioning why waiters need to make a living wage and why they don't just join a coding bootcamp.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#53

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #39

Why are degree requirements so high for nurses? What's with this artificially imposed supply shortage?

Because in most cases it's not going to be a doctor saving your life, it's going to be a nurse. They need to have the knowledge and skills to do so.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#54

Post by DanBC » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #35

AlexandrB wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a symptom of our time that everything gets reduced to an economic calculus. The concepts of sacrifice, passion, or duty seem like a distant memory. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying it's doctors and nurses thinking this way. But a lot of posters on HN certainly are.

It’s just reality. If you want more people to sign up to change bedpans during a pandemic, then pay up. The cause of stress among healthcare providers is economic, and so is the solution. I would never advise my kids to go into a job where a part of your pay is being called a hero. That’s how you get taken advantage of. This is not wartime. This is a result of MBAs in management running the organization so lean that…

> If you want more people to sign up to change bedpans during a pandemic

Pretty fucking dismissive of the skilled work that nurses do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J60LFG8ejVs

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#55

Post by bigbubba » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

If their industry didn't artificially restrict the supply of labor to keep their wages sky high, they wouldn't be so overworked now that more is required of them. My sympathy is nonexistent; they've made out like bandits for years and now they're paying the price for that (unfortunately, that's a price that must be paid by the rest of us too.) I hope they begin to take this as a wakeup call.

To the downvoters, let me ask you this: how many Americans have been driven into medical bankruptcy while their doctors are living in multi-million dollar McMansions? The system in America is the way doctors have designed it. They have outsized political power; legislators heed their lobbyists. They created and perpetuated this system so they could profit from it. They have been hoisted by their own petard.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#56

Post by Enginerrrd » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #39

Why are degree requirements so high for nurses? What's with this artificially imposed supply shortage?

They aren't!

Nursing is one of very few licensed professions you can do with an associates degree.

And that 2 years is PACKED with a ton of need-to-know skills. The field requires rather incredible breadth just for an entry level position. It's a very demanding program.

These are people dealing with the possibility of life and death mistakes constantly without immediate supervision so a licensure is totally appropriate.

I'm frankly bewildered at your question. It suggests extreme unfamiliarity with the required nursing skill-set.

I was a paramedic, which took me 3 full-time semesters and also required a licensure to practice. And while we had to do a few things outside of the nursing scope, we probably only really covered maybe 1/3 of the skills and knowledge that nurses need to cover in 4 semesters.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#57

Post by jeffrallen » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #51

I'll do it. Lots of the things they can do can be outsourced to a cheaper less-trained individual. I know because the sleep deprivation means half of them are working at the capacity of a drunk version of me. The number of mistakes surgical assistants make that surgeons have to watch out for is quite something. Veteran surgeons like my parents have top notch surgical teams they've cultivated over time. But most surge…

Thanks. But you are not scalable.

You know what is? An entire society taking this thing seriously.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#58

Post by DanBC » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

woahAcademia wrote: post #26

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dedication to, empathy for the humans that would otherwise die is the more likely conclusion. Most people aren't solely motivated by greed. Many nurses have actually had their pay cut during this pandemic and have kept slaving away in garbage bags and cloth masks despite their wholesale mistreatment.

Yeah it's sad people feel pains. I'm also unhappy that those same people have used Regulatory capture to increase their wages at the expense of public health. Deregulate medical and there will be less burnout, but the pay will be cut in half.

> Regulatory capture

Next time you need surgery give me a call. I don't have any relevant qualifications; I have no training; I don't have a professional registration; I don't have insurance; but yeah sure I can watch a few Youtube videos and give it a go.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#59

Post by bserge » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #23

tootahe45 wrote: post #6

Nobody is forcing them to work. My guess is that being massively overpaid for what they do makes it worth it for them, otherwise we would've seen mass walkouts.

Could you imagine seeing headlines about people dying because of people like you walking out during a crisis? And knowing you contributed to those deaths? And where are you going to go? Switch industries in the middle of this? Because if you stay in healthcare, walking out of your single facility doesn't even get you away from the pandemic. I have friends burning out in healthcare, being paid terribly, but sticking i…

They can just quit. But not because they're bad people.

When you're really burned out, you don't give half a fuck about anything. It can be the choice between staying and jumping off a bridge one night, or just leaving.

I hope not many people experience that kind of stress, but if you do, just walk out. It's always an option.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#60

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

woahAcademia wrote: post #26

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dedication to, empathy for the humans that would otherwise die is the more likely conclusion. Most people aren't solely motivated by greed. Many nurses have actually had their pay cut during this pandemic and have kept slaving away in garbage bags and cloth masks despite their wholesale mistreatment.

Yeah it's sad people feel pains. I'm also unhappy that those same people have used Regulatory capture to increase their wages at the expense of public health. Deregulate medical and there will be less burnout, but the pay will be cut in half.

There are far more nurses and other health care workers who don't make mega-money than there are MDs making millions.