Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty • Hacker News Board

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#21

Post by surajama » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

tootahe45 wrote: post #6

Nobody is forcing them to work. My guess is that being massively overpaid for what they do makes it worth it for them, otherwise we would've seen mass walkouts.

If they refuse to work during the greatest health crisis of the past century that is going to forever tarnish their record and may impact their ability to find a job in the future. Doctors often have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans and don't have skills that can easily transfer to other lines of work. They don't have a choice but to work through this.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#22

Post by woahAcademia » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #10

Der_Einzige wrote: post #2

On the upside, traveling nurses are now routinely making 5-10K a week (and they usually get real PPE rather than be told to reuse stuff) That's far better money than most soldiers (or even FAANG engineers) make, and the risk of being shot or having to write crappy unit tests is far smaller. Source if you don't believe me: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/24/health/covid-nurses-big-money... Lmao what's wrong downvoters? Do…

Most roles aren't the kind making that money. A few making big money does not make up for what's happening to the rest. And travel roles are weird/tough in other ways too.

Physicians do.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#23

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

tootahe45 wrote: post #6

Nobody is forcing them to work. My guess is that being massively overpaid for what they do makes it worth it for them, otherwise we would've seen mass walkouts.

Could you imagine seeing headlines about people dying because of people like you walking out during a crisis? And knowing you contributed to those deaths? And where are you going to go? Switch industries in the middle of this? Because if you stay in healthcare, walking out of your single facility doesn't even get you away from the pandemic. I have friends burning out in healthcare, being paid terribly, but sticking it out because it's a fucking pandemic and people are dying. Try some empathy.

It's much more standard for people to just walk away when the moral stakes are low, like they tend to be in tech. If someone can't log into HN because you walked out, who cares? But just because it's money-or-walk in our industry doesn't mean that's how it is for others.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#24

Post by i_haz_rabies » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

tootahe45 wrote: post #6

Nobody is forcing them to work. My guess is that being massively overpaid for what they do makes it worth it for them, otherwise we would've seen mass walkouts.

Nurses are massively overpaid? Are you kidding?

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#25

Post by sonotathrowaway » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

chowells wrote: post #5

Der_Einzige wrote: post #2

On the upside, traveling nurses are now routinely making 5-10K a week (and they usually get real PPE rather than be told to reuse stuff) That's far better money than most soldiers (or even FAANG engineers) make, and the risk of being shot or having to write crappy unit tests is far smaller. Source if you don't believe me: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/24/health/covid-nurses-big-money... Lmao what's wrong downvoters? Do…

I don't care how much someone other than me makes. I care that you're so insensitive that when you're told that medical professionals are burning out en mass you think money makes up for it. That's so incredibly lacking in both empathy (they're human beings) and utility (they're medical care providers) that I can't reconcile it with any good-faith viewpoint on the world. So I have to assume it's trolling and should n…

I think a lot of the anti-mask crowd uses a lot of arguments rooted in sociopathy and the assumption that people should only care about themselves: “it only kills the old”, “it’s only a problem if you have a preexisting condition”, “the nurses are making more money anyway”, “we need to sacrifice some people for the economy”, etc.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#26

Post by woahAcademia » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #11

tootahe45 wrote: post #6

Nobody is forcing them to work. My guess is that being massively overpaid for what they do makes it worth it for them, otherwise we would've seen mass walkouts.

Dedication to, empathy for the humans that would otherwise die is the more likely conclusion. Most people aren't solely motivated by greed. Many nurses have actually had their pay cut during this pandemic and have kept slaving away in garbage bags and cloth masks despite their wholesale mistreatment.

Yeah it's sad people feel pains.

I'm also unhappy that those same people have used Regulatory capture to increase their wages at the expense of public health.

Deregulate medical and there will be less burnout, but the pay will be cut in half.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#27

Post by acdha » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

UShouldBWorking wrote: post #15

chowells wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how much someone other than me makes. I care that you're so insensitive that when you're told that medical professionals are burning out en mass you think money makes up for it. That's so incredibly lacking in both empathy (they're human beings) and utility (they're medical care providers) that I can't reconcile it with any good-faith viewpoint on the world. So I have to assume it's trolling and should n…

He said, "on the upside". In no way did he detract from the work they are doing. I also don't get the downvoted.

It’s not a useful contribution: overwork is always a problem and especially important in healthcare where it’s not “our project launches late” but “someone died due to error or lack of attention”.

It’s also misrepresenting the few who can travel with the much larger group who can’t take those gigs - especially important when you consider what life is like for anyone with kids right now. Put in HN terms, do your 80 hour weeks get better if you learn that some consultants are temporarily billing $500/hour?

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#28

Post by dragontamer » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #2

On the upside, traveling nurses are now routinely making 5-10K a week (and they usually get real PPE rather than be told to reuse stuff) That's far better money than most soldiers (or even FAANG engineers) make, and the risk of being shot or having to write crappy unit tests is far smaller. Source if you don't believe me: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/24/health/covid-nurses-big-money... Lmao what's wrong downvoters? Do…

I come from a largely nursing-based family.

Yes, the choice of going into nursing is largely a strategic choice, much like other life-long decisions (going to high school, going to college, getting a house. going into nursing, etc. etc.). In fact, a huge part of the calculus is knowing that US Citizenship is offered to nurses at higher rates (due to the nursing shortage).

Ironically: being a doctor is not a strategic choice despite making more money. You need to sacrifice another 10-years of your life in school and additional training, and going into virtually any other field will result in more money in most situations. Especially if you become a general practitioner: the most needed doctor (but the one that is paid the least).

Run the numbers of 10-fewer years of 401k savings in your youngest years as a 20-year old... as you go through additional schooling + residency. There's not a lot of money to be had here.

--------

So you have a point: money, citizenship, and more are offered to nurses and doctors. Because the roles are important and a lot of people (fortunately) agree that the role is important.

But that's not really how nurses / doctors think on the day-to-day level. They usually are thinking "Patient X doesn't listen to me. X would be in a better situation if they did Y".

Doctors / nurses can easily make more money by selling unnecessary prescriptions / unnecessary surgery / etc. etc. That's just the position of trust that they're in. The fact that they usually DONT do that is due to a sense of duty and Hippocratic oath. Doctors / nurses, if placed in a "pragmatic capitalist" setting, aren't to be trusted actually. Its due to culture and soft-reasons (a sense of duty. A sense of morals, a sense of ethics) that they remain ethical.

Not all doctors/nurses are ethical. But the vast, vast majority of them are ethical. Seeing things in a "greedy pure capitalist" way in the profession is grossly frowned upon. Because most people don't really see doctors / nurses as an adversary offering health services. A doctor / nurse is someone who is there to help you when you need help.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#29

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

UShouldBWorking wrote: post #15

chowells wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how much someone other than me makes. I care that you're so insensitive that when you're told that medical professionals are burning out en mass you think money makes up for it. That's so incredibly lacking in both empathy (they're human beings) and utility (they're medical care providers) that I can't reconcile it with any good-faith viewpoint on the world. So I have to assume it's trolling and should n…

He said, "on the upside". In no way did he detract from the work they are doing. I also don't get the downvoted.

It's getting downvoted because it comes off as "Yeah, but..." which absolutely detracts.

Re: Doctors and Nurses Are Running on Empty

#30

Post by Der_Einzige » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

sonotathrowaway wrote: post #25

chowells wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how much someone other than me makes. I care that you're so insensitive that when you're told that medical professionals are burning out en mass you think money makes up for it. That's so incredibly lacking in both empathy (they're human beings) and utility (they're medical care providers) that I can't reconcile it with any good-faith viewpoint on the world. So I have to assume it's trolling and should n…

I think a lot of the anti-mask crowd uses a lot of arguments rooted in sociopathy and the assumption that people should only care about themselves: “it only kills the old”, “it’s only a problem if you have a preexisting condition”, “the nurses are making more money anyway”, “we need to sacrifice some people for the economy”, etc.

Please do not misconstrue me or my ideas as being part of or sympathetic to the "anti-mask" crowd or as an endorsement of sociopathic thinking. The "crappy unit tests" part was an attempt at humor which I expected more people to get around here.