Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#881

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

kllrnohj wrote: post #723

zamadatix wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to note this is probably the single most slanted you could pick for M1 vs Zen 3 performance. For instance I could pull this graph instead https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph16252/119343.png and make the exact opposite claim. In reality it's probably best to read the full review and come to your own conclusions https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... The truth is desktop Zen 3 is onl…

> The truth is desktop Zen 3 is only decently ahead of certain multi core workloads at 10x or more the wattage, Zen 3 was never really compared to M1 in multicore workloads in that Anandtech M1 article. You linked a single-core one, and Zen 3 isn't using 10x the power in that single-threaded comparison, either. Also the 27W TDP i7-1185G7 is keeping up with the also around 25w TDP M1 in spec2017 single-threaded. M1 is…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#882

Post by rthomas6 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

DarkmSparks wrote: post #523

One of the things I've noticed recently, and especially since the CPU space started finally moving again is how much of a divide there now is between the computer literate, and the computer illiterate. It probably creates a social divide at least that which existed when the majority of people couldn't read or write, and is just as "not OK". Example of this in the first paragraph of this article: > For everyday users…

Hasn't it always been this way? The only difference is now there are a lot more computer-illiterate people using computers.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#883

Post by Joeri » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

joking wrote: post #605

notriskfree wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the M1 macs are really using memory much more efficiently; the stock M1 macs with 8GB were available rapidly; the Macs with 16GB ram or larger disk space had a three to four week delay when ordering; a lot of enthusiasts and influencers rushed out and got base models; they are then surprised to find they can work ok in most apps with only 8GB. Perhaps they never really needed to fit 32GB into their intel macs…

When you need 32 or 64gb of ram is not because the data structures or the programs you use need memory, it's because the data they use (database content, virtual machines, images, videos, music... ) fill that ram, and those data is not going to occupy less on an arm machine.

I think you’re right. I’ve only ever needed 32 gb when I was running a local hadoop cluster for development. Those virtual images required the same amount of ram regardless of OS.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#884

Post by Veedrac » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #483

_delirium wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't expect it to be particularly competitive in training large models. It's an integrated GPU with 8 cores, and the "neural engine" has an additional 16 cores. The kinds of discrete GPUs (mostly Nvidia) that people use for deep learning have more like 5000+ cores. I think Apple is aiming more at either training small models, or running pre-trained models. For example Photoshop is starting to integrate neural f…

I think it's pretty clear they're aiming at inference only. Training models on laptops is never going to be competitive. Might be fun for prototyping small models in PyTorch/TensorFlow though.

No, they're aiming at training too.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#885

Post by WhyNotHugo » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

I'm amused by the praise.

I've been a Linux user for the last 10 years. Last week I got an M1 Mac Mini to do some iOS development on.

It feels fast, but not substantially faster than Linux. Safari is a bit snappier than Firefox, but that's about it.

Was macOS on Intel really that much slower?

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#886

Post by Veedrac » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

liamcardenas wrote: post #91

I know very little, so perhaps someone could enlighten me. But I am curious how Apple Silicon will be for machine learning. When Apple releases a MacBook Pro with 64GB of unified memory (assuming they will) — won’t that be amazing for machine learning? I am under the impression that GPU memory is a huge factor in performance. Also, is there any way that the neural engine can accelerate training — or is it just for ex…

The true answer is we don't know what Apple's scaled-up GPUs will look like, so it's hard to tell precisely how performant they will be.

However, everything so far indicates these will be pretty powerful, as even the M1 is pretty beastly for what it is. So it's possible.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#887

Post by utxaa » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #756

rini17 wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but offering no machine suitable for developers and power users will eventually hurt them when they leave whole ecosystem.

I'm a developer and haven't had a desktop in 15 years or so. It's been a mix of Thinkpads (IBM then Lenovo) and MBPs. I'm guessing very few developers need the extra power a desktop offers over a high-end laptop.

even a low end laptop. i work in clojure for finance. digital nomad. thinkpad x220.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#888

Post by WhyNotHugo » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

Intel and AMD were really limited in how much they could innovate since they limited themselves to Windows desktop.

And windows basically only runs on the amd64 architecture.

Hopefully, they'll start being bolder now. The MS ecosystem has been an anchor for hardware (especially desktop/laptops) innovation for far too long.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#889

Post by Veedrac » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

carry_bit wrote: post #784

What does this mean for the future of CPU design? VLIW and other advanced designs never went mainstream in part because the AOT on install/JIT everything future never arrived. But with the success of Rosetta 2, has that future finally arrived?

If anything Apple has proven that the OoO power tax is mostly imaginary, so we'll probably just get more, bigger OoO for a while.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#890

Post by utxaa » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

speleding wrote: post #739

coldtea wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the developers and power users that still use desktop machines/towers are either very cpu-power-hungry niche exception, or the more backwards ones, and thus least likely to influence/be imitated by anyone...

I care to differ (as a developer on a desktop). The reason for developing on a desktop is that my productivity is much higher with 3 screens, one of which is a 40 inch, a full 101 key keyboard and a mouse.

at work, when at the office, they are always pushing screens on us. keep thinking is some pork deal with dell. my whole team either plugs in a laptop to one screen, or just works straight on the laptop. maybe we're not cool.