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Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

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Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#651
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a contributing factor. If things like retain/release are fast and you have significantly more memory bandwidth and low latency to throw at the problem, you can get away without preloading and caching nearly as much. Take something simple like images on web pages: don't bother keeping hundreds (thousands?) of decompressed images in memory for all of the various open tabs. You can just decompress them on the fly a…

You've completely changed the scope of what's being discussed, though. Retain/release being faster would just surface as regular performance improvements. It won't change anything at all about how an existing application manages memory. It's possible that apps have been completely overhauled for a baseline M1 experience. Extremely, extraordinarily unlikely that anything remotely of the sort has happened, though. And…

From the original article:

Third, Marcel Weiher explains Apple’s obsession about keeping memory consumption under control from his time at Apple as well as the benefits of reference counting:

>where Apple might have been “focused” on performance for the last 15 years or so, they have been completely anal about memory consumption. When I was there, we were fixing 32 byte memory leaks. Leaks that happened once. So not an ongoing consumption of 32 bytes again and again, but a one-time leak of 32 bytes.

>The benefit of sticking to RC is much-reduced memory consumption. It turns out that for a tracing GC to achieve performance comparable with manual allocation, it needs several times the memory (different studies find different overheads, but at least 4x is a conservative lower bound). While I haven’t seen a study comparing RC, my personal experience is that the overhead is much lower, much more predictable, and can usually be driven down with little additional effort if needed.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#653
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point, unless the new hardware is also a touchscreen for those iOS Apps - then we'll see a lot of people wishing they'd waited

Touching your computer screen to run mobile apps on it? Is that what people really want?

100% for me at least.

My dream laptop would be an iPad Pro 12.9 with a Magic Keyboard and M1 chip which could run both full screen iOS apps and full Mac OSX. In a perfect world it would have an extra USB-C port too.

But to be honest, just a regular macbook with a touchscreen would be great now. I've had enough of people trying to use my Macbook at work, prodding the screen to try and scroll down, then trying and failing to do the two finger scroll gesture on the touchpad.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#654
post #647

> A task like editing 8K RAW RED video file that might have taken a $5000 machine before can now be done on a $699 Mac Mini M1 or a fan-less MacBook Air that costs $999 That’s insanely great. Maybe I am exaggerating but Apple’s M1 might be the best innovation in the tech industry in the past 5 years.

Why are we even talking about 8k video? It's something that almost noone needs and even fewer people have to edit. My guess is most people are still happy with editing their FHD videos. Something that works well on a five year old laptop.

4 years ago “why do we care about 4K” 8 years ago “why do we care about 1080p” etc...

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I misread, but I understood that more as Apple using ARC and that gives them a memory advantage. M1 is simply making that more efficient by doing retain-release faster. But I agree that should not change total memory usage. But I think in general you could say that Apple has focused more on optimizing their OS for memory usage than the competition may have done. Android uses Java which eats memory like crazy an…

> I suspect C# is not that much better being a managed and garbage collected language C# is better than JVM in that it has custom value types. Say you want to allocate an array of points in Java you basically have to allocate array[pointer] all pointing to tiny 8 byte objects (for eg. 32 bit float x and y coords) + the overhead of object header. If you use C# and structs it just allocates a flat array of floats with…

I had a C# project that was too slow and used too much RAM.

I can attest that structs use less memory however IIRC they don't have methods so no GetHashCode() which made them way too slow to insert in a HashSet or Dictionary.

In the end I used regular objects in a Dictionary. RAM usage was a bit higher than structs (not unbearably so) but speed improvement was massive.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have issues with paying a lot for hardware, why don't you buy Mac Pro?

A machine that wont outperform the new mini $6000 16 cores 32GB of ram least powerful gpu on the list 2GB of storage $8,799.00 28 cores 48GB of ram same gpu 4GB of storage $14,699 MSRP on a 2020 Toyota Corolla $19,600 AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X 32-Core 3.7 GHz Socket sTRX4 $2,629.90 Cost of the same basic GPU about $219 Cost of complete system equivalent to the almost car priced mac about 4200. 9k-15k isn't "a lot"…

I don't use apple products but I think the high price of a workstation is not something specific to Apple.

From a discussion I had with a friend recently, I found that Precision workstations from Dell or Z workstations from HP have similar prices for similar performances (sometime prices can reach 40k or 70k dollars).

When comparing Mac Pro to an enthusiast pc build, yes the mac pro is "overpriced", but the mac pro is using a Xeon which is pricier than a ryzen (even if performance wise it's inferior) and a pro gpu which also cost more than consumer gpu (again, even if performance is inferior). The price of a nvidia quadro is always higher than a Geforce gpu with the same specs.

You can see a spec/price comparison I did when having the discussion with my friend here : https://mega.nz/file/Nj4UnSJR#fBdZfn3zoZ8boxap35-GWEgDlicH3R...

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#657
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. 15k hardware is for people who are using it professionally. By "professionally" I mean that they can throw such purchase into their cost and just pay less tax. From my perspective it does not matter if I pay ~15k to tax office or to Apple. In Europe the incentives to buy expensive goods as a company (like cars, fancy office furniture, etc.) is even bigger because of VAT tax (much bigger than US sales tax)…

You can get the VAT off, sure, but on the rest you just get to pay out of pre-tax profit. In the UK that means 20%. So a machine that's £5k retail becomes £4167 without VAT, effectively £3333 if you take into account tax savings, which only apply if your company is in profit. A £15K machine effectively would still cost you £10k. It's a big saving, sure, but it's still a very expensive machine.

Some people pay more than 20% tax. At 50% tax the savings look pretty good.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#658

PSA: however impressive the M1 hardware is, you're still going to be stuck using OSX, playing in Apple's walled garden and being subjected to their awful policies. I'll gladly join the groupie crowd once Linux runs stable on it.

> I'll gladly join the groupie crowd once Linux runs stable on it.

There's still the issue with the keyboard having 7 fewer keys than a modern ThinkPad, and compared to the classic 7-row ThinkPad keyboard, 15 physical keys are missing. That's a considerable disadvantage. Mac laptops have superior displays, but we're using keyboard just as often.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#659
post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then buy the new Mac Pro? I don't understand why that's not an option for GP.

Because as the sibling comments point out, the price of a Mac Pro isn't just an "Apple Tax^WPremium" over a desktop machine but is an order of magnitude more expensive (assuming you don't care about workstation-class components, i.e. Xeon Ws, Radeon Pro GPUs and ECC RAM). There's an enormous price gap between a Mac Mini and the Mac Pro (especially when the Mini now has higher single-threaded performance than the base…

I've had a continuous string of Mac Pros from G3 to 2012 (MacPro 5,1) my main workhorse. I have continually updated and expanded it.

The 2013 mac pro was a mess. pass.

The latest mac pro... I think it wasn't just expensive, it was sort of sucker expensive.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#660

PSA: however impressive the M1 hardware is, you're still going to be stuck using OSX, playing in Apple's walled garden and being subjected to their awful policies. I'll gladly join the groupie crowd once Linux runs stable on it.

I'm not in a walled garden on the Mac... I can run anything I want on it, and I do.
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