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Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

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Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#561
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote doesn’t really cover why M1 macs are more efficient with less ram than intel macs? You’ve got a memory budget, it’s likely broadly the same on both platforms, the speed at which your retains/releases happen isn’t going to be the issue. it’s not like intel macs use GC where m1 uses RC. (It explains why iOS does better with less ram than android, but the quote is specifically claiming this as a reason for 8G…

yeah its a bit of a stretch. to the extent that macos apps use garbage collection less than pc apps it would need less ram. but they are kinda hopping around a macos vs android comparison which makes no sense. I think mac enthusiasts trying to imagine why a max of 8 or 16gb is ok. it is ok for most people anyway.

> macos vs android comparison which makes no sense.

Because the M1 is similar to the chips used in iOS, hence the comparison is not inappropriate.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I never run docker on my local machine (I develop on a remote machine), benefits: remote machine os + setup is very close to production and GBit bandwidth up and down at my hoster is so much nicer when working with Docker images.

VS Code Remote SSH makes this a really nice experience too.

It really does, I started using it recently, and I was very impressed.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside that you are way off thread here... > how do I assign >16GB of memory to it if I only have 8-16GB of RAM? This is Apple's slowest/ lowest performance M series CPU. Complaining that the CPU they built for the MacBook Air and the lowest end MacBook Pro doesn't have 32GB of RAM misses the entire picture. This is Apple's first and lowest end M series chip, and it's blowing away Intel chips with discrete GPU…

> In fact since Apple is migrating the entire line-up, it's likely the next generation of CPUs will support discrete RAM I've been wondering about how much of the general purpose performance boost of M1 is due to having the RAM in the same package. That has to have benefits in power and latency. So if a future Mx chip supports discrete RAM, it may not seem quite as magical anymore. Then again, Apple's volume and marg…

Apple makes it very clear in their materials that their unified memory is a very big part of their performance boost.

> So if a future Mx chip supports discrete RAM, it may not seem quite as magical anymore.

I agree, but I also doubt they will be making a Mac Pro SOC with huge amounts of RAM aboard either. I'm not sure how common they are, but Apple supports up to a terra-byte of RAM (maybe more). I could easily see SOCs with 64GB of RAM, but I'm struggling with them putting 128 or 256GB+ on the SoC.

Maybe some kind of hybrid?

Very curious to see how they are going to work around this.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#564
post #397

I wonder how fast M1 feels compared to, say, KDE on a high-end Intel machine. Is it really that much faster than anything, or just faster than what people are used to with OS/X and Windows.

That's what I'm wondering. Perhaps they are used to thermal-throttled poorly-cooled under-performant screamingly-noisy machines like the mpb 16":

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/16-is-hot-noisy-with-an...

My colleague has a 4 year old dell laptop connected to 2 monitors doing all kinds of cpu demanding work while keeping his 100+ chrome tabs open. I never heard the darn machine cooler fans spinning.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#565
post #541
post #534

Can't wait to buy the M1 and feel the speed upgrade. Fast-forward 2 years later browsing the web is slow as hell, battery runs out in an hour, can't even CMD-TAB without lagging.

Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion. Program expands so as to fill computer resources available for its execution.

In indeed. My wife has a work laptop with an i7, 16GB Ram, fast SSD and 802.11ax network. Just starting it up in the morning and just going through Outlook email takes longer than it did 10 years ago on 2Gb Core2Duo laptops.

It seems most of the hardware these days is used to run Windows/software updates and corporate security theatre malware.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#566
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote doesn’t really cover why M1 macs are more efficient with less ram than intel macs? You’ve got a memory budget, it’s likely broadly the same on both platforms, the speed at which your retains/releases happen isn’t going to be the issue. it’s not like intel macs use GC where m1 uses RC. (It explains why iOS does better with less ram than android, but the quote is specifically claiming this as a reason for 8G…

The post kind of does: > The benefit of sticking to RC is much-reduced memory consumption. It turns out that for a tracing GC to achieve performance comparable with manual allocation, it needs several times the memory (different studies find different overheads, but at least 4x is a conservative lower bound). It implies that ref-counting is more economical in terms of wasted memory than GC, with the tradeoff being pe…

Apple’s runtimes have always used rc, this is not a change between Intel and arm.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#567

One of the things I've noticed recently, and especially since the CPU space started finally moving again is how much of a divide there now is between the computer literate, and the computer illiterate. It probably creates a social divide at least that which existed when the majority of people couldn't read or write, and is just as "not OK". Example of this in the first paragraph of this article: > For everyday users…

A more apt analogy would be "for everyday users who just want to record their expenses, keep a journal, and sketch some drawings, paper and pencil have been perfectly fine for the last century".

Understanding how computers work down to being able to describe L1 instruction caches and how prefetching works and why having an 8 instruction wide decoder pulling from a giant L1I cache isn't really relevant to empowering people. Most people are going to be more empowered by using computers more efficiently to prepare documents and presentations to assist their other endeavors. I think those people can be forgiven for not getting excited that now they have "8 cores" or "16 cores" or "32 cores". Conversely, getting drastically improved battery life is an immediate and tangible improvement in the day-to-day lives of people.

Being illiterate creates a societal gap because it prevents the free spread of information, and creates a class hierarchy centered around controlling the spread of information. How does not understanding how computers work limit people?

  > "how much of a divide there now is"
You seem to be insinuating that, used to, people were "more literate" and are becoming more ignorant. What if it's just that computers have become easier to use and more prevalent?

More people are using computers to communicate now than ever before. This seems to be the opposite of "peasants not knowing how to write". People have more opportunity to reach out and grow.

There are problems in controlling information and infrastructure, who owns all our data, and who controls social media along with privacy concerns, and maybe one of the solutions to these problems is more tech education, but this seems orthogonal to your concerns.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#568
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it makes objective c and swift memory management faster but it doesn’t reduce ram usage at all. (maybe a weee bit less bandwidth used)

If memory is released as soon as possible instead of waiting for the next GC cycle, does not it make it more efficient?

There is no “next GC cycle”, objc and swift use ref counting on every platform (there was an abortive GC attempt on desktops a few years back but it never saw wide use and has been deprecated since mountain lion).

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's very easy to perform very well on a specific benchmark when there's dedicated hardware for this. I'd say the same about GPUs as well. It's great for people who game, but beyond a certain baseline, it's pretty pointless for most of us. > I'm not saying this isn't good, it's great for people editing, but this isn't a general indicator of performance Umm, it's also great for people who watch YouTube or Netflix. Z…

GPUs, unlike video decoders, are programmable and general in purpose. As for Zoom, YouTube, and Netflix, existing hardware is more than fine enough. No one is streaming 8K RAW for a conference call. Unless you're an editor, you won't see much of a benefit.

> As for Zoom, YouTube, and Netflix, existing hardware is more than fine enough.

Didn't suggest these were jobs existing CPUs struggle with. I said the video encode/ decode makes the CPU much more efficient which increases battery life.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit about reference counting being the reason that Macs and iOS devices get better performance with less ram makes no sense. As a memory management strategy, reference counting will always use more ram because a reference count must be stored with every object in the system. Storing all of those reference counts requires memory. A reference counting strategy would be more efficient in processor utilization compar…

I think it's more a design pattern you see more with GC collected languages where people instantiate objects with pretty much every action and then let the the GC handle the mess afterward. Every function call involves first creating a parameters object, populating it, then forgetting about it immediately afterward. I've seen this with java where the memory usage graph looks like a sawtooth, with 100s of MB being all…

Isn't it the case with Java that it will do this because you do have the memory to spend on it? Generally this "handling the mess afterward" involves some kind of nursery or early generation these days, but their size may be use-case-dependent. If tuned for a 8/16 GB environment, presumably the "sawtooth" wouldn't need to be as tall.
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