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Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

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Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#161

Post by torstenvl »

uncomputation wrote: post #122
darren_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote doesn’t really cover why M1 macs are more efficient with less ram than intel macs? You’ve got a memory budget, it’s likely broadly the same on both platforms, the speed at which your retains/releases happen isn’t going to be the issue. it’s not like intel macs use GC where m1 uses RC. (It explains why iOS does better with less ram than android, but the quote is specifically claiming this as a reason for 8G…

Someone please correct me for the sake of all of us if I’m wrong, but it sounds like Apple is using specialized hardware for “NSObject” retain-and-release operations, which may bypass/reduce the impact on general RAM.

I don't think that's quite right. Apple believes strongly in retain-and-release / ARC. It has designed its software that way; it has designed its M1 memory architecture that way. The harmony between those design considerations leads to efficiency: the software does things in the best way possible, given the memory architecture.

I'm not an EE expert and I haven't torn apart an M1, but Occams's Razor would suggest it's unlikely they made specialized hardware for NSObjects specifically. Other ARC systems on the same hardware would likely see similar benefits.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#163

Post by jml7c5 »

brundolf wrote: post #25

This is fascinating: > Retain and release are tiny actions that almost all software, on all Apple platforms, does all the time. ….. The Apple Silicon system architecture is designed to make these operations as fast as possible. It’s not so much that Intel’s x86 architecture is a bad fit for Apple’s software frameworks, as that Apple Silicon is designed to be a bespoke fit for it …. retaining and releasing NSObjects i…

I think the author doesn't understand what Gruber wrote here. Android uses more memory because most Android software is written to use more memory (relying on garbage collection). It has nothing to do with the chips. If you ran Android on an M1, it wouldn't magically need less RAM. And Photoshop compiled for x86 is going to use about the same amount of memory as Photoshop compiled for Apple silicon. Sure, if you rewrote Photoshop to use garbage collection everywhere then memory consumption would increase, but that has nothing to do with the chip.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#164

Post by bluedino »

spurgu wrote: post #143
bawolff wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really on this topic. What linus wants to use personally has little bearing on what architectures linux will (eventually) support. Edit To clarify: i mean, linus is saying he wouldnt go to the trouble personally, not that he would reject a patch adding support. Those are two very different things.

How is "Apple may run Linux in their cloud, but their laptops don't ;(" not on topic? Edit: It's not like Apple has any (commercial) interest in working with the Linux kernel developers to ensure support/compatibility even if the M1 is ARM based. Edit 2: Don't get me wrong, if Apple announces they will support Linux I'll run out the door and buy one now, as a MacOS user. Edit 3: And this is a criticism against Apple…

That didn’t have anything to do with the UI which was the topicp

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#165

Post by jfoster »

dheera wrote: post #40
neilpanchal wrote: post #4

I just got one. I’m blown away by the speed as well. Chrome runs insanely fast! Alas, it’s not developer ready yet. Brew is a mess. Docker doesn’t work. PyCharm is WIP although can use x86 version. I was skeptical of the hype but this little laptop has made me realize how slow everything else is. Unfortunately, while the hardware has accelerated far beyond expectations, the software - specifically MacOS BigSur is a m…

On the other hand, Apple is fashion. They have always advertised and placed themselves as such. If you want functionality, you need a non-Mac running Linux. I'm just hoping we have better silicon options soon, for those of us who don't want customization-unfriendly, upgrade-unfriendly Apple hardware.

Apple is definitely fashion-driven, but I think they also produce some hardware that is much better to work with.

The touchpads on Apple laptops are much better than what you can find on other laptops. The screens are much clearer. The weight isn't too much, and they're not huge; easy to move around with.

I'm very keen on getting back onto Ubuntu, but there's just no equivalent laptops in terms of hardware.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#166

Post by nottorp »

MBCook wrote: post #140
nottorp wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like some form of GDDR instead of plain DDR. Not only faster, but I bet simultaneously accessible from both the CPU and GPU.

> Not only faster, but I bet simultaneously accessible from both the CPU and GPU. It is. We know they're using a unified memory architecture, they pointed it out in the presentation.

Unified doesn't necessarily mean dual ported.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#167

Post by spurgu »

bluedino wrote: post #164
spurgu wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "Apple may run Linux in their cloud, but their laptops don't ;(" not on topic? Edit: It's not like Apple has any (commercial) interest in working with the Linux kernel developers to ensure support/compatibility even if the M1 is ARM based. Edit 2: Don't get me wrong, if Apple announces they will support Linux I'll run out the door and buy one now, as a MacOS user. Edit 3: And this is a criticism against Apple…

That didn’t have anything to do with the UI which was the topicp

Scroll up, I responded directly to this:

> I wonder if we will see Linux support

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#168

Post by blihp »

Teknoman117 wrote: post #45

Tin foil hat warning - but how much of the M1 performance improvement is from optimizations made in Big Sur for Apple Silicon that they just didn't bother implementing for x86 since it's now the outgoing technology for Apple? I realize the reducing in power consumed for any given quantity of work is downright amazing for laptops, but I guess I'm more curious about workstation and (build) server kinds of applications.…

That's basically what they did when they made the switch from PPC to x86. IIRC, there was an edict a few years before the switch (Jobs talked about it in an interview at the time) where teams were told something along the lines of not making any design/optimization decisions that were tied to PPC. They likely did the same thing with x86 this time.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#169

Post by wmf »

uncomputation wrote: post #122
darren_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote doesn’t really cover why M1 macs are more efficient with less ram than intel macs? You’ve got a memory budget, it’s likely broadly the same on both platforms, the speed at which your retains/releases happen isn’t going to be the issue. it’s not like intel macs use GC where m1 uses RC. (It explains why iOS does better with less ram than android, but the quote is specifically claiming this as a reason for 8G…

Someone please correct me for the sake of all of us if I’m wrong, but it sounds like Apple is using specialized hardware for “NSObject” retain-and-release operations, which may bypass/reduce the impact on general RAM.

It's ARMv8.x atomic instructions.

Re: Apple Silicon M1: Black Magic Fuckery

#170

Post by jolux »

goatinaboat wrote: post #19
neilpanchal wrote: post #4

I just got one. I’m blown away by the speed as well. Chrome runs insanely fast! Alas, it’s not developer ready yet. Brew is a mess. Docker doesn’t work. PyCharm is WIP although can use x86 version. I was skeptical of the hype but this little laptop has made me realize how slow everything else is. Unfortunately, while the hardware has accelerated far beyond expectations, the software - specifically MacOS BigSur is a m…

It’s not fashion. Unfortunately you are wrong. Everything we call tech is in fact driven by fashion. My older version Mac is badgering me to upgrade to Bug Sur. Top feature: 100 new emojis. That is what Apple prioritised. Why the hell are emojis even part of the OS let alone its top feature! Truth is GUIs are done, were a decade or more ago. All there is left now is change for the sake of change. And Apple can’t thin…

Emoji are part of the OS because they’re frequently displayed on websites and in applications, so the system font needs to support them to render them correctly.
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