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Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

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Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#91

Post by AzzieElbab »

nec4b wrote: post #90

Mind experiment: In the last paragraph of dang's top post replace "communism" witch "nazism" and "Engels" and "Marx" with "Hitler" and "Mussolini". How would you feel about it? There are probably millions of people in the USA who barely escaped with their lives from vile communist regimes and yet the idea of communism is still entertained as some misunderstood noble thing. Until there will be "Nuremberg trials" equiv…

Best explanation about popularity of communism among American elites that I have come across read is extremely banal, under communism everything is about status and nothing is about value. People who create no value are naturally going after status.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#92

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

AzzieElbab wrote: post #91
nec4b wrote: post #90

Mind experiment: In the last paragraph of dang's top post replace "communism" witch "nazism" and "Engels" and "Marx" with "Hitler" and "Mussolini". How would you feel about it? There are probably millions of people in the USA who barely escaped with their lives from vile communist regimes and yet the idea of communism is still entertained as some misunderstood noble thing. Until there will be "Nuremberg trials" equiv…

Best explanation about popularity of communism among American elites that I have come across read is extremely banal, under communism everything is about status and nothing is about value. People who create no value are naturally going after status.

> under communism everything is about status and nothing is about value

that is not quite correct: in socialist countries the elite had their own closed shops, a much higher salary and access to lots of material goods that mere workers just didn't have. These goodies were kept from the public eye, but most people knew about their existence, it was somewhat of an 'open secret'.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#93

Post by dalbasal »

jiofih wrote: post #58

This entire article focuses on the upbringing and bourgeoise conditions of Engels and Marx without making an actual point - I believe the goal is to expose some form of contradiction in these men thinking of the workers class struggles? Truth is, there is none. It’s just that most of the thinking is done by people who are relatively well-off in life, everyone else is too busy “making a living”.

Why does there need to be a point. It's an essay about a historical figure.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#94

Post by rbanffy »

joe_the_user wrote: post #89
rbanffy wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it serves to show how used the left-leaning crowd is to such baseless attacks and how patient they are. As far as biased sources go, this one offers an interesting view and brings up the point made elsewhere, that the people who struggle daily to put food on the table may not have the bandwidth to think about global solutions to systemic problems. Also, it prompts me to remind people that neither Engels…

Also, it prompts me to remind people that neither Engels nor Marx told anyone they should sell all their material possessions and give to the poor. That would be Jesus and it's surprising that they are so often confused. Yep, that's a good point. But ... the thing about this, the article raises things to think about in the reader. But the fact selection and the approach is essentially a standard hit piece. I'm pretty…

> If this 100% bad faith article results in good discussion, why can't we do more of it? Why can't I do it? Now everything from Turning Point USA and such is OK to post

That's a very good point.

It's not the article that is good. It's left-leaning HNers that are an amazing bunch that won't allow themselves to be baited by this.

Yeah... That was a bit self-serving.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#95

Post by AzzieElbab »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #92
AzzieElbab wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best explanation about popularity of communism among American elites that I have come across read is extremely banal, under communism everything is about status and nothing is about value. People who create no value are naturally going after status.

> under communism everything is about status and nothing is about value that is not quite correct: in socialist countries the elite had their own closed shops, a much higher salary and access to lots of material goods that mere workers just didn't have. These goodies were kept from the public eye, but most people knew about their existence, it was somewhat of an 'open secret'.

I am not sure this contradicts what I said. Those goodies were provided by assigned status.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#96

Post by joe_the_user »

rbanffy wrote: post #94
joe_the_user wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it prompts me to remind people that neither Engels nor Marx told anyone they should sell all their material possessions and give to the poor. That would be Jesus and it's surprising that they are so often confused. Yep, that's a good point. But ... the thing about this, the article raises things to think about in the reader. But the fact selection and the approach is essentially a standard hit piece. I'm pretty…

> If this 100% bad faith article results in good discussion, why can't we do more of it? Why can't I do it? Now everything from Turning Point USA and such is OK to post That's a very good point. It's not the article that is good. It's left-leaning HNers that are an amazing bunch that won't allow themselves to be baited by this. Yeah... That was a bit self-serving.

Yeah, we shouldn't trumpet the tremendous quality of our posts, our insight, our fortitude in the face of immense odds, etc, that would be unseemly...

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#97

Post by charlescearl »

nec4b wrote: post #90

Mind experiment: In the last paragraph of dang's top post replace "communism" witch "nazism" and "Engels" and "Marx" with "Hitler" and "Mussolini". How would you feel about it? There are probably millions of people in the USA who barely escaped with their lives from vile communist regimes and yet the idea of communism is still entertained as some misunderstood noble thing. Until there will be "Nuremberg trials" equiv…

On the other hand, there are 40+ million U.S. citizens, of African origin, each with at least one ancestor at the bottom of the Atlantic due to the capitalist trans-Atlantic slave trade. Enslaved for four centuries, building capitalist America literally with their bodies as some of the first U.S. millionaires earned their millions from intercontinental human trafficking. There are roughly 5 million Indigenous U.S. citizens who were subjected to the continued oppression unleashed by an exploitive capitalist system. Can we talk about the 627,000 Vietnamese citizens brutally killed by the U.S. military during the Vietnam war? They didn't make it out alive.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#98

Post by artificialLimbs »

lefrenchy wrote: post #86
artificialLimbs wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are violently opposed to communism/socialism because they were taught that was the right way. This is ideology. Others, myself included, who have educated ourselves about the consequences of communism/socialism are violently opposed to it because we hold the consequences of communism/socialism to be of more significance than its high minded ideas about what is 'good'.

That is still ideological. You are choosing capitalism despite it’s incongruities, excesses, and consequences, because you find more significance in what it sees as ‘good’. Pretending to be non-ideological is disingenuous.

I am choosing capitalism because it doesn't end with shooting pregnant women and children in empty fields.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#99

Post by CryptoPunk »

anoncake wrote: post #88
CryptoPunk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a smaller scale version of private property, that is exactly what you would expect with smaller-scale society, and the form you would expect modern private property's pre-historic progenitor to take, before codes of law, and the scaling up of production with agricultural and then industrial-scale capital.

Which of your examples do you think is private property?

Personal property is private property.

The term "personal property" is mostly used by Marxists.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#100

Post by boomboomsubban »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #98
lefrenchy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is still ideological. You are choosing capitalism despite it’s incongruities, excesses, and consequences, because you find more significance in what it sees as ‘good’. Pretending to be non-ideological is disingenuous.

I am choosing capitalism because it doesn't end with shooting pregnant women and children in empty fields.

So if I can prove capitalism led to shooting some pregnant women and children in empty fields, what position do you plan to switch to?
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