Live data from Hacker News

MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

mynor.org

61–70 of 70 posts

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#61

I love how the NOR gate is made visibly of two transistors.

Makes it pretty hard to hide an Internet backdoor in it. Seriously, I wonder if this is a way to make a secure and open computer, by implementing the deepest level of security functionality in slow but visibly trust-able hardware.

To quote CAR Hoare:

> "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."

I've been thinking about this too. I don't think the hardware needs to be this weak/slow. It just needs to be analyzable. Modern silicon chips can only be inspected with electron microscopes, and even then, they have multiple layers, so it's a non-starter. You could probably spend multiple lifetimes studying a modern chip.

On the other hand, if you take a chip like the good old ARM1, it's a 32-bit chip with no cache and about 25K transistors. If you fabricated it with an older process, with a single layer, it might be possible to inspect it with a regular microscope, and you could use basic computer vision to compare the layout against a reference implementation that you have an HD picture of. It's a relatively weak chip, but you may be able to clock it at 50 or 100 MHz. It's fast enough to run basic UI apps and networked services. It's 32-bit so you could address a few gigabytes of RAM (well, maybe not with an ARM1 design, but with a comparable 32-bit RISC-V, say).

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#62
post #27

What sort of simulator is required to go from “running” to ordering a prototype board 26 days later? I had assumed physical breadboards and wires and chips were always necessary to prototype... 2019-11-02 The first version of the MyNOR simulator is running. The circuit works! 2019-11-17 I have finished the work on the microcode. I added support for MyNOR to my cross-assembler myca. 2019-11-28 PCB layout completed. A…

Nope. I design electronics professionally and I rarely do breadboard prototypes (and almost never using a solderless breadboard). This is because I can be reasonably confident about the behaviour of most circuits with perhaps a little bit of simulation using a SPICE model for some analogue parts. For complex digital logic (which is very rare to design using seperate ICs these days, you would use an FPGA) there is a m…

In fact, it can go down to about $5 and shipping with places like JLCPCB if you can handle only 2 layers at a maximum of 100x100mm

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While simplicity of design can engender trust, in this case it's the stuff around it that still needs complexity. Besides, people have already demonstrated single-gate backdoors that don't show up in most IC die photos.

> Besides, people have already demonstrated single-gate backdoors that don't show up in most IC die photos. Source? Not that I don't believe you, but the idea sounds fascinating

Here's one that I know of: "A2: Analog Malicious Hardware" (2016)

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kaiyuan_Yang5/publicati...

Abstract:

> While the move to smaller transistors has been a boon for performance it has dramatically increased the cost to fabricate chips using those smaller transistors. This forces the vast majority of chip design companies to trust a third party -- often overseas -- to fabricate their design. To guard against shipping chips with errors (intentional or otherwise) chip design companies rely on post-fabrication testing. Unfortunately, this type of testing leaves the door open to malicious modifications since attackers can craft attack triggers requiring a sequence of unlikely events, which will never be encountered by even the most diligent tester. In this paper, we show how a fabrication-time attacker can leverage analog circuits to create a hardware attack that is small (i.e., requires as little as one gate) and stealthy (i.e., requires an unlikely trigger sequence before effecting a chip's functionality). In the open spaces of an already placed and routed design, we construct a circuit that uses capacitors to siphon charge from nearby wires as they transition between digital values. When the capacitors fully charge, they deploy an attack that forces a victim flip-flop to a desired value. We weaponize this attack into a remotely-controllable privilege escalation by attaching the capacitor to a wire controllable and by selecting a victim flip-flop that holds the privilege bit for our processor. We implement this attack in an OR1200 processor and fabricate a chip. Experimental results show that our attacks work, show that our attacks elude activation by a diverse set of benchmarks, and suggest that our attacks evade known defenses.

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#64
post #54

I wonder why he chose to use a discrete TTL gate for the ALU's nor gate instead of just another 74HC series IC.

I assume it's the same reason many tube amplifiers expose their tubes... they want to highlight their differentiator and for you to see them for exactly what they are.

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but that's exactly the claim, restated.

Not really. It's completely trivial, if extremely slow (which the article acknowledges) to emulate an ALU in software, with access to a single, universal hardware gate. Why don't they just say "we put a NOR gate on a chip, then added all this other stuff (RAM, boot EEPROM, etc. ) to make it function as a computer." That would, at least, be a non-misleading statement of the claim.

Yes, it's a "Single board computer with 20 ICs, and a single-gate ALU".

To me it's not really an ALU either, since the NOR gate doesn't really do the job I expect from an ALU.

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#68
post #54

I wonder why he chose to use a discrete TTL gate for the ALU's nor gate instead of just another 74HC series IC.

It's sort of the retro-computing equivalent of doing donuts in the high school parking lot.

Except cooler.

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but that's exactly the claim, restated.

Not really. It's completely trivial, if extremely slow (which the article acknowledges) to emulate an ALU in software, with access to a single, universal hardware gate. Why don't they just say "we put a NOR gate on a chip, then added all this other stuff (RAM, boot EEPROM, etc. ) to make it function as a computer." That would, at least, be a non-misleading statement of the claim.

That’s how I interpreted the OP though... I really don’t know what you were reading into it.

Re: MyNOR: Single board computer that uses a single NOR gate as its ALU

#70
post #13

This reminds me of Dave Taylor's idea for "pinky processors". These were similarly minimal, relying on conditional branches to do much of the work. Taylor thought massive numbers of these clocked at high frequencies would deliver more computation than complex high-IPC processors. He was wrong, as the failures of the Pentium 4 and AMD's Bulldozer would later demonstrate, but at least he was ahead of his time. Unlike T…

>how impractical it is

the ideas like MyNOR dovetail nicely with the couple posts/discussions here recently about rebooting/bootstrapping the civilization. One can imagine several situations where we'd have to go back to basics - wars, catastrophes and/or colonies on other planets or even generational ship, etc. I mean in the situation without modern technology available, we know how to make simple crystal diode and with a bit of small effort transistor and that would let us build very simple computer along the lines of the MyNOR ...

One can also imagine it in the other direction - how a traveler from the year 3000 would try to build a quantum-quark-multidimensional-time-accelerated MyNOR of the year 3000 using the year 2020 technology - i mean we probably already have some pieces allowing to build a crude version of it.

Post reply on HN