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Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

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Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#41

Post by EForEndeavour »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #17

As an addendum. Many people (quite frankly) worship "Science" like it is a benevolent deity. You just have to "listen" to it, and good results will come out, bettering society. But terrible things happen when you try to apply science to a field that it should not apply to. Science can tell you how to do something effectively. It will not tell you whether or not it is good or beneficial to do a certain thing. There wa…

> The mother runs through a battery of tests to determine if her baby has a genetic abnormality -- and if so, can choose an abortion.

Providing expectant parents with better information and more choice? Sign me up.

> Unequivocally, this is genocide! Genocide!

If it's unequivocal, why do opposing opinions exist?

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#42

Post by rjsw »

madaxe_again wrote: post #6

Specific illiteracy is positively omnipresent. Try talking to an accountant about Renaissance art. Try talking to a butcher about linguistic theory. To a neurosurgeon about Egyptian architecture. Specialisation is what our society mandates, and you don’t improve your lot by having knowledge which is extraneous to your specialisation - unless you have a lot of extraneous knowledge, in which case, congratulations, you’…

> To a neurosurgeon about Egyptian architecture.

See Ben Carson.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#43

Post by [deleted] »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #11

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

[deleted]

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#44

Post by bjt2n3904 »

ChefboyOG wrote: post #26
bjt2n3904 wrote: post #11

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

I understand what you're saying, but I think there's some "both sides"-ism at play here. Yes, there is a level of scientific ignorance displayed when people hand wave and claim "the science" is on their side without actually understanding the science. However, there is a huge qualitative difference here, illustrated even by your example of quarantine recommendations. If we approximate an answer to "What is the optima…

> outright ignoring recommendations

Have you ever wondered why it's not terribly controversial to "recommend" seat belts and airbags?

But when your "recommendation" is to join a large organization and funnel millions of dollars into it, or to levy massive taxes to prevent "the end of the world as we know it"? Pardon me, but I'm deeply skeptical.

Do you remember Solyndra? $500 million loan from the government. Went bankrupt.

I will not accept this straw man re-framing of the issue. Yes, "some people" say "but science isn't always right", and that is a poor argument indeed. But I am not.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#45

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

tallies wrote: post #10
perfunctory wrote: post #4

Indeed. It puzzles me why in our society numeracy doesn't seem to be as important as literacy. If kids struggle with learning to read we won't give up until they get it. If they struggle with fractions we often shrug and say their brains aren’t wired for mathematics. Sad.

As someone who isn't 'wired for math' (but still knows my fractions, so to speak) I can't imagine putting math up against literacy. Reading is so fundamental to both communication and learning. Why do you equate the two?

Math is pretty fundamental, it is the basis for a lot of what people do in modern society and provides a better basis for solving many problems than the alternatives.

Universal literacy is a relatively new concept that civilization went a very long time without. One can make the argument that it is not really necessary for communication or learning.

I don't really believe there is such a thing as not being 'wired for math' any more than there is such a thing as not being 'wired for reading'. Absent mental impairment it is something that can be learned, it's just that we generally do a terrible job of teaching it.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#46

Post by Loughla »

lordnacho wrote: post #19

Actually the problem is not just that people don't know about science, they know so little that they don't know who to ask, either. Look at your local antivaxx FB group, they think Wakefield is authoritative. I blame the education system. There's way too much specific knowledge that you will be tested on, and barely any theory of knowledge or scientific method fundamentals. And in the end, you will forget the silly q…

How can an education system teach evaluating sources, and acceptable methods of evaluating facts, when those two things are at the heart of almost every disagreement in the areas we're talking about?

Fake news isn't just a meme, it's a belief system. So how does a public school system tackle that?

>Just so you don't think that we had enough time at school to teach you everything.

Is there literally one person (in the US) who leaves a basic 12th grade education believing that they learned everything there is to learn?

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#47

Post by scythe »

Readers familiar with Quillette may wonder why such a level-headed essay by a somewhat well-known author appears here and not on the website of a more respectable publication. This is why:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/10/lawrence...

It turns out that when people are kicked out, they don't just disappear. Dr. Krauss makes his point well; it's a shame the essay won't have the impact it should. But should he have that impact? I really don't know.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#48

Post by gus_massa »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #34
bjt2n3904 wrote: post #11

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

As Asimov once said: "It is not so much that I have confidence in scientists being right, but that I have so much in nonscientists being wrong." Right now there are people running around saying that COVID is as deadly as the flu, that the pandemic was faked, that masks are a conspiracy. You don't have to believe that epidemiologists are 100% correct about every recommendation during a fast-developing emergency in ord…

> Right now there are people running around saying that COVID is as deadly as the flu, ...

Which is the current best estimation of the risk of getting covid-19 and dying?

Which is the current best estimation of the risk of getting flu and dying?

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#49

Post by 0xfeba »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #17

As an addendum. Many people (quite frankly) worship "Science" like it is a benevolent deity. You just have to "listen" to it, and good results will come out, bettering society. But terrible things happen when you try to apply science to a field that it should not apply to. Science can tell you how to do something effectively. It will not tell you whether or not it is good or beneficial to do a certain thing. There wa…

> There was a news article recently published, that claimed that Iceland had eradicated Down's Syndrome. The mother runs through a battery of tests to determine if her baby has a genetic abnormality -- and if so, can choose an abortion. Unequivocally, this is genocide! Genocide!

I'm really interested in how you can categorize abortion of unwanted babies as genocide. I mean, I get it, they prevented DS babies from being born, ergo "eliminated a group of people", for generous definitions of people.

Would you say the same about preventing all babies from being born with fetal alcohol syndrome by having the mothers abort? What about having the mothers not drink when pregnant?

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#50

Post by gibspaulding »

everdrive wrote: post #9

Math is much more binary. I can describe a problem quite well, and describe it well enough that I could be said to understand it. But I really can't put many problems into math. I've seen others do it, and it seems like a wonder to me. I'm not a dumb guy either, but my english and math scores on my SAT were off by more than 130 points. Some people in this thread are claiming that it's foolish to think that some peopl…

There's a difference between "it's unlikely I could ever be an engineer" and "I can't pass Algebra 1".

High level math and things like number theory do require a certain creative intuition that is harder for some people to learn than others, but if you can follow a recipe, figure out who has the right of way at a stop sign, or follow the rules while playing a card or board game, then you can get through Calc I.

I used to work as a math tutor when I was in College, and tons of the students who would come into the tutoring center seemed to have a sort of math-phobia. They'd been saying that they just "aren't good at math" for so long that they couldn't bring themselves to try. If you could convince them that they could do what you were asking them to do, it was pretty straight forward to walk them through the math itself.

My wife is a special education teacher now, and experiences the same phenomenon. She has students who really do struggle, but for a lot of them, it's just a matter of convincing them to actually look at the problem and the tools/patterns they have been taught.

Is is incredibly destructive when people (including teachers) present math as some sort of black magic that they won't touch with ten foot pole. There are a lot of students out there for whom math isn't necessarily immediately intuitive, or who simply had a rough school year at the wrong time and fell behind. When those students hear others dismiss mathematics it validates them doing the same, and the next generation looses one more potential scientist.

As you may have noticed, this is an issue close to my heart.

/end rant

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