Earlier quoted context omitted.
Edit: see replies below this post which clarify what was intended. My response was based on a misunderstanding; that cleared up, I now agree with the poster. --- > When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". if those forecasts are based on science/maths, yes you are listening to science. > Ultimately, that question does not have a scientific answer yes it does, just th…
I think you are misrepresenting the parent which explicitly mentions tradeoffs. Science can help inform those tradeoffs but cannot make them for you. At the risk of reopening a rather heated discussion from yesterday, "science" cannot answer the question of whether it is reasonable to have a policy allowing outdoor dining in, say, NYC. ADDED: Science can (probably and imperfectly) help you estimate how risky a given…
Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
31–40 of 97 posts
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#32Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#33Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…
I understand what you're saying, but I think there's some "both sides"-ism at play here. Yes, there is a level of scientific ignorance displayed when people hand wave and claim "the science" is on their side without actually understanding the science. However, there is a huge qualitative difference here, illustrated even by your example of quarantine recommendations. If we approximate an answer to "What is the optima…
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#34Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#35Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…
Listening to scientists in the context covid will not tell you exactly how long quarantine should be. But it gives you multiple predictions you can start with and then over time see which are more correct and which are less correct.
It does also answer some of quite sure responses to questions that actually ended up disputed. Like: does the Covid have ability to overrun healthcare system? Do asymptomatic spread exists? Is the Covid just a little flu?
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#36Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…
You're not asking a scientific question, you're asking a political one, because you also want the economy to do well, which is political.
There are two conflicting questions there, in reality; "How long can we quarantine without affecting the economy?" (Answer is like 0 days)
And "How long must we quarantine to eradicate the virus?" (Answer is around 140 days if a single quarantine unit contains up to 10 people and they infect eachother on the last day of symptom-freeness).
Because the question is not only political but considers two conflicting requirements, you can either satisfy both in a bad way or satisfy one well and abandon the other.
A similar situation occurs when you are tasked with optimizing the material usage for a product. Science can tell you how little product material you need so that it performs to spec and it can tell you how much you need so that it'll perform it's function as long as possible. The balance informs the price of the product but politically capitalism wants you to prefer a low price, similar to how capitalism will prefer no quarantine and lockdown.
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#37Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…
This feels like a straw man to me.
First, let's be very clear: There is absolutely a cohort of people out there who are objectively denying the scientific reality of covid. Those denials ranges from the absurd (e.g. covid doesn't exist, it's a conspiracy, it's going away), to the distorted (e.g. covid is no worse than the flu), to the simply wrong (e.g. masks don't protect you, they actually make you sick).
I think the refrain "we listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19" is short hand for distinguishing oneself from folks in the groups above.
Let's also be clear that statistics and modelling are scientific methods. I'm frankly a little baffled that you've attempted to draw a line between these two things. Science can absolutely help you assess questions like "How long should we quarantine to minimize health impact, and maximize economic recovery?" Will the answers be probabilistic? Yes, absolutely. That doesn't make them any less scientific, and to suggest they are suggests its own form of "scientific illiteracy".
Further, "the science" is very clear: lockdowns are effective, masks help, social distancing helps, contact tracing helps, and so on. "The science" is also clear that none of these are quick fixes or panaceas. They're all part of a web of interventions that each provide some small measure of protection that, taken together, can help keep the pandemic under control. This is the "Swiss cheese" metaphor in action.
Science can also be used to assess the effectiveness of these methods versus their tradeoffs by, again, employing statistical approaches. Are those methods foolproof? No. But they're far from guesswork. I'd argue it's this basic misunderstanding that leads people to, for example, dismiss climate modelling...
Now, ultimately, the decision as to what to do is a political one, not because statistical models and methods are flawed or inaccurate, but rather because there's always going to be a range of trade-offs, and the trade-offs we make are ultimately a political decision.
But the least we can do is expect our politicians--not to mention the people around us--to assess those trade-offs based on rigorous facts and statistical methods. That's what "listening to science" means.
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Edit: see replies below this post which clarify what was intended. My response was based on a misunderstanding; that cleared up, I now agree with the poster. --- > When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". if those forecasts are based on science/maths, yes you are listening to science. > Ultimately, that question does not have a scientific answer yes it does, just th…
I think you are misrepresenting the parent which explicitly mentions tradeoffs. Science can help inform those tradeoffs but cannot make them for you. At the risk of reopening a rather heated discussion from yesterday, "science" cannot answer the question of whether it is reasonable to have a policy allowing outdoor dining in, say, NYC. ADDED: Science can (probably and imperfectly) help you estimate how risky a given…
However it becomes impossible to have such discussions when a large contingent of the population are ignoring all of the scientific data, and instead basing their opinions on motivated reasoning, faith, or political preferences.
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#39Quilette is an interesting choice of publication, given that they don't mind promoting one particular kind of "scientific" literacy: https://quillette.com/2018/05/12/biosocial-criminology-lombr... https://quillette.com/2019/06/05/superior-the-return-of-race...
Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?
#40Most studies are wrong.