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Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

quillette.com

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Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#21

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

Edit: see replies below this post which clarify what was intended. My response was based on a misunderstanding; that cleared up, I now agree with the poster.

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> When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science".

if those forecasts are based on science/maths, yes you are listening to science.

> Ultimately, that question does not have a scientific answer

yes it does, just the best science can do (as in, estimate) based on limited data. If you want better than that, drop to your knees and ask god because that's all that's left.

Your post badly misunderstands what science is.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#22

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

For what it's worth, "science" in many fields is inherently statistical. Statistical illiteracy is arguably more pervasive and insidious than "scientific" illiteracy.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#23
post #7

Quilette is an interesting choice of publication, given that they don't mind promoting one particular kind of "scientific" literacy: https://quillette.com/2018/05/12/biosocial-criminology-lombr... https://quillette.com/2019/06/05/superior-the-return-of-race...

There's definitely a segment of HN trying to push these kind of dog whistles. Quilette is an outlet of the alt-right. No reputable publication does race science.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#24

Math is much more binary. I can describe a problem quite well, and describe it well enough that I could be said to understand it. But I really can't put many problems into math. I've seen others do it, and it seems like a wonder to me. I'm not a dumb guy either, but my english and math scores on my SAT were off by more than 130 points. Some people in this thread are claiming that it's foolish to think that some peopl…

You are correct and those people are too ignorant to understand how ignorant they are. Don't worry about the noise they generate. They have nothing else to contribute.

Here is Hermann von Helmotz on Michael Faraday (who knew no math) -

"Now that the mathematical interpretation of Faraday's conceptions regarding the nature of electric and magnetic forces has been given by Clerk Maxwell, we see how great a degree of exactness and precision was really hidden behind the words which to Faraday's contemporaries appeared either vague or obscure; and it is in the highest degree astonishing to see what a large number of general theorems, the methodical deduction of which requires the highest powers of mathematical analysis, he found by a kind of intuition, with the security of instinct, without the help of a single mathematical formula."

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#25

Actually the problem is not just that people don't know about science, they know so little that they don't know who to ask, either. Look at your local antivaxx FB group, they think Wakefield is authoritative. I blame the education system. There's way too much specific knowledge that you will be tested on, and barely any theory of knowledge or scientific method fundamentals. And in the end, you will forget the silly q…

> I blame the education system

This is a popular venue for blame, but perhaps you haven’t yet met the highly respected scientists claiming that masks don’t work against covid, that AIDS wasn’t real, or that vitamin C cures everything —- these are all highly educated people who, in their fields, have a deep understanding of “theory of knowledge” and “scientific method fundamentals”.

But, they are also human, and suffer from the human biases: confirmation bias, various selection biases like survivorship bias, etc.

These, I think, are more likely the culprits — and if you can figure out how to solve those within the education system, please share!

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#26

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

I understand what you're saying, but I think there's some "both sides"-ism at play here.

Yes, there is a level of scientific ignorance displayed when people hand wave and claim "the science" is on their side without actually understanding the science. However, there is a huge qualitative difference here, illustrated even by your example of quarantine recommendations.

If we approximate an answer to "What is the optimal quarantine strategy?" through the combined efforts of various sciences--statistics, biology, etc--then while the results are not guaranteed, the recommendation is certainly not unfounded. It may be incomplete, but it is built off of decades of empirical evidence.

Conversely, outright ignoring recommendations about COVID or climate or something similar, simply because "science isn't always right" or because you "aren't a scientist" is a different thing altogether.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#27

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

Edit: see replies below this post which clarify what was intended. My response was based on a misunderstanding; that cleared up, I now agree with the poster. --- > When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". if those forecasts are based on science/maths, yes you are listening to science. > Ultimately, that question does not have a scientific answer yes it does, just th…

I think you are misrepresenting the parent which explicitly mentions tradeoffs. Science can help inform those tradeoffs but cannot make them for you. At the risk of reopening a rather heated discussion from yesterday, "science" cannot answer the question of whether it is reasonable to have a policy allowing outdoor dining in, say, NYC.

ADDED: Science can (probably and imperfectly) help you estimate how risky a given behavior is likely to be. However, it cannot tell you whether, say, a presumably low risk activity (both personally and in terms of disease spread) should be allowed given economic impact, people's social needs/wants, etc.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#28

Some of the most scientifically illiterate people I've encountered are the people who say things like, "We listen to the science when it comes to COVID-19". Let us be perfectly real. When it comes to political decisions based on forecasts, you are not "listening to science". Science can answer many questions. I can ask it, "How long do I need to fire the engines to achieve this particular orbit", or perhaps "How much…

> "How much material do I need in this region of the bridge to sustain the load of traffic going across it?"

To nitpick a bit: anyone who answers that question for a living will be practicing engineering, not science. Just as an excellent physician can espouse wildly unscientific beliefs, so too can someone become quite good at the craft of engineering without actually doing much science at all.

> I can't come to science and ask it, "How long should we quarantine to minimize health impact, and maximize economic recovery?" Ultimately, that question does not have a scientific answer. It can be informed by statistics -- to the best that we understand the numbers, and scientists can present models of what they think the future will look like... but results not guaranteed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you consider "hard" disciplines like orbital mechanics and structural engineering to be science, and anything with less certainty in it to be not science, but statistics. This is inaccurate. Find me a scientific field that doesn't involve uncertainty and statistical analysis. Your examples of orbital mechanics and structural engineering certainly do. Conclusions made in both of these disciplines will always need to account for various sources of irreducible error (e.g., uncertainty in mass, temperature, altitude, fuel load; simplifying assumptions about atmosphere structure, gravity anomaly, solar wind, etc.). The importance of safety factors is the ultimate proof that uncertainty is core to engineering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety

Science is the modeling of reality by formulating and testing hypotheses through observation and/or experiment. Does epidemiology not fall squarely within this definition? What do you propose as an alternative approach to inform governments and individuals what to do in the face of a natural phenomenon (a pandemic) which, although inherently uncertain, exhibits behaviors that are decidedly not random and inherently unpredictable?

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#29
What does science fiction have to do with this?

The real culprit is an established and generously funded PR - "public manipulation" - industry which is dedicated to misleading and misinforming the public in general, and lobbying selected politicians in particular.

Lead in petrol, smoking, toxic weedkillers, unsafe vehicles, and many other money-making aberrations have all been defended by these operations. Anti-masking and climate change denialism are just the latest toxic outputs from this industry.

It's very disappointing to see a scientist complain about scientific illiteracy and then attack the wrong people for it.

Re: Why Is Scientific Illiteracy So Acceptable?

#30

I suspect, somewhat anecdotally, that this begins with the educational system (at least in the US). Reflecting on my education, at least, it's remarkable how much of it boiled down to exercises in reading comprehension. Even many of my science classes were really just training my ability to read a passage and respond to a short answer question. There were many "alternative" math tracks offered--home economics you cou…

This also isn't to suggest that the education system is the only thing at play here.
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