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Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

launchpad.ethereum.org

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#21

Post by viraptor »

beaner wrote: post #8
emilsedgh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were refrigerators that could work without electricity with no the same set of capabilities, then any refrigerator still using electricity would be considered wasteful.

I'm not saying that proof-of-stake is bad, but it does change the way the network functions, because it locks capital and therefore affects the velocity of money in the network. It also changes the distribution of mined coin. Whereas currently it takes an equal mining cost to reap an equal reward, proof-of-stake rewards those who already have enough to stake. This is essentially a recreation of the inflation system w…

> proof-of-stake rewards those who already have enough to stake

As opposed to people who have money buying mining hardware to make more money that can be invested into mining hardware?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#22

Post by brazzy »

beaner wrote: post #7
newyankee wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean no more mining and waste of electricity ?

Just to riff on this idea, despite inevitable pushback: Bitcoin's proof-of-work is basically a conversion of energy directly into money. This pushes competition towards cheaper and cheaper sources of energy. First it's finding jurisdictions that subsidize it, then it's creating your own cheaper energy sources. Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment. The penultimate phase is custom off-grid min…

> Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment.

Cheap yes, renewable no. Complete non sequitur there.

> The endgame is that all energy companies will primarily be Bitcoin mining companies, feeding their excess renewable energy into the grid to power homes, etc.

Absolute insanity straight out of postapocalyptic SF.

"The ancients destroyed their civilization by funelling an ever increasing share of resources towards some kind of elaborate game of numbers".

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#23

Post by beaner »

viraptor wrote: post #18
beaner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

"Price for Bitcoin is too high, no power for your home today, unless you outbid the market"

You're choosing to consider the case when the price is very high, but not when it's very low. The flip-side of that coin would be that energy not worth being put into mining, which would be sold at a loss to the grid, would instead be put into batteries and saved, to be sold when when market prices were high again.

But I think by the time Bitcoin becomes so universal that all energy companies are mining companies, it is likely to already be at the scale of USD/EUR, or even become the reserve currency of the world, in which case it would not fluctuate nearly as much as it does now.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#24

Post by dane-pgp »

adrianN wrote: post #19
beaner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to riff on this idea, despite inevitable pushback: Bitcoin's proof-of-work is basically a conversion of energy directly into money. This pushes competition towards cheaper and cheaper sources of energy. First it's finding jurisdictions that subsidize it, then it's creating your own cheaper energy sources. Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment. The penultimate phase is custom off-grid min…

There are many existing processes that basically turn energy into money. It's called energy intensive industry. So far instead of pushing for renewables, companies making their money this way were a major hindrance in clean energy investments.

I'm not sure which energy intensive industries you're thinking of, but bitcoin mining has the potential advantage that it can be turned on and off at a moment's notice, and doesn't require constant human supervision. That's not true of a lot of industrial processes.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#25

Post by brazzy »

seibelj wrote: post #4
newyankee wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean no more mining and waste of electricity ?

Eventually yes, but mining isn’t a “waste” of electricity any more than any electricity used for any essential service is. Isn’t all electricity effectively wasted if the same service can be offered for less electricity? Ethereum (and bitcoin) provide a service, and that service is protected using electricity.

The problem is that mining can never reduce its energy usage. Any efficiency gains are necessarily eaten by increased difficulty. And in fact, energy usage has to incease in proportion with the value of the network.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#26

Post by viraptor »

beaner wrote: post #23
viraptor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Price for Bitcoin is too high, no power for your home today, unless you outbid the market"

You're choosing to consider the case when the price is very high, but not when it's very low. The flip-side of that coin would be that energy not worth being put into mining, which would be sold at a loss to the grid, would instead be put into batteries and saved, to be sold when when market prices were high again. But I think by the time Bitcoin becomes so universal that all energy companies are mining companies, it…

Yes, I'm choosing the case where the price is too high, because most people rely on energy being available and that's why there's a number of laws (depending on the country) that protect from disconnection. In practical terms, I prefer my freezer not to stop working and spoil stored food rather than having universal world currency which fluctates less.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#27

Post by beaner »

viraptor wrote: post #21
beaner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that proof-of-stake is bad, but it does change the way the network functions, because it locks capital and therefore affects the velocity of money in the network. It also changes the distribution of mined coin. Whereas currently it takes an equal mining cost to reap an equal reward, proof-of-stake rewards those who already have enough to stake. This is essentially a recreation of the inflation system w…

> proof-of-stake rewards those who already have enough to stake As opposed to people who have money buying mining hardware to make more money that can be invested into mining hardware?

Yes, that's how most businesses work. You start with a capital investment, often times through a loan, and through smart management, make a profit on the margin, that you can choose to reinvest to stay competitive.

Proof-of-stake is completely unlike this. People who "have" are not required to exchange any effort to reap new reward. They retain purchasing power while the "have-nots" lose purchasing power.

I dunno if I struck a nerve with you with these points about proof of stake or something. I'm not completely against it - I think it should be tried, and Ethereum is a great network to try it with. But I also don't think it's completely perfect. I also think proof-of-work is very defensible and likely to succeed in unexpected ways.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#28

Post by Ar-Curunir »

beaner wrote: post #23
viraptor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Price for Bitcoin is too high, no power for your home today, unless you outbid the market"

You're choosing to consider the case when the price is very high, but not when it's very low. The flip-side of that coin would be that energy not worth being put into mining, which would be sold at a loss to the grid, would instead be put into batteries and saved, to be sold when when market prices were high again. But I think by the time Bitcoin becomes so universal that all energy companies are mining companies, it…

Do you really think that Bitcoin, the first prototype of a decentralized currency, will be the primary electronic currency ever? We've only just begun exploring the design space, and it's terribly arrogant to believe that we'll be stuck with this prototype even just 20 years down the line.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#29

Post by beaner »

brazzy wrote: post #22
beaner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to riff on this idea, despite inevitable pushback: Bitcoin's proof-of-work is basically a conversion of energy directly into money. This pushes competition towards cheaper and cheaper sources of energy. First it's finding jurisdictions that subsidize it, then it's creating your own cheaper energy sources. Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment. The penultimate phase is custom off-grid min…

> Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment. Cheap yes, renewable no. Complete non sequitur there. > The endgame is that all energy companies will primarily be Bitcoin mining companies, feeding their excess renewable energy into the grid to power homes, etc. Absolute insanity straight out of postapocalyptic SF. "The ancients destroyed their civilization by funelling an ever increasing share of re…

I don't know why this seems so dystopian to some. To me, it seems like a financial incentive for a decentralized, robust, renewable future.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 – Minimum deposit reached

#30

Post by brazzy »

beaner wrote: post #29
brazzy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proof-of-work incentivizes cheap & renewable energy investment. Cheap yes, renewable no. Complete non sequitur there. > The endgame is that all energy companies will primarily be Bitcoin mining companies, feeding their excess renewable energy into the grid to power homes, etc. Absolute insanity straight out of postapocalyptic SF. "The ancients destroyed their civilization by funelling an ever increasing share of re…

I don't know why this seems so dystopian to some. To me, it seems like a financial incentive for a decentralized, robust, renewable future.

There is nothing particularly robust or renewable, or "future" about it.
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