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“Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

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111–120 of 172 posts

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#111
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two meaningful options for CPU. If they both adopt the tech...

... they create a niche for a third ... provided there are enough people who care. If nobody cares nobody cares.

You make it seem like anybody can make a competitive CPU and take it to market. You need billions of dollars of R&D to make a good CPU, and if everyone who can afford that R&D signs on to taking your freedom away, there is no alternative.

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#112
post #17

I worked extensively with Pluton when I was employed on Azure Sphere (an IoT platform marketed as highly secure and composed of a linux-based OS, ARM SoC, and cloud service). I might be able to answer questions about this. Here’s a blog by the engineer lead on Azure Sphere that discusses Pluton: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/anatomy-of-a-secured-... Disclaimer: I still work at MSFT but in a different org.

Excuse me for asking, but what possible reason could I have to trust MS INSIDE my CPU?

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the Trusted Platform Module itself isn't a DRM solution. It's a chip that hangs off the LPC/ISA bus and holds a crypto key generated from boot stage hashes that your BIOS, bootloader, and operating system provide to it. The idea is that all of those hashes together form a key that would change if any stage were tampered with, and that by encrypting things with the key you can prove that those particular things ha…

Why does MS full disk encryption require TPM?

I believe the TPM is where the private encryption key is kept.

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#115
After reading through @darzu's pluton explanation on the site linked, I realised this actually may give you the impression that it's a security measure, but in reality now Azure can verify each chip (not just the computer anymore) and see if it runs authentic software (ding ding ding - Windows Licensing). The two key pair method mentions that each devices can be verified to be running authentic software by azure (the phone home thing everyone is worried about). While most laptops and computers do not ship with keys anymore and instead the hardware generates some kind of signature that is then verified by windows activation, this feels like an easier method of doing that. I wonder if this also means Microsoft is aggressively going to make more and new hardware (or some Microsoft verified hardware kind of thing to setup standards) to directly compete with Apple Silicon and keep profits healthy by forcing more customers to pay for authentic software.

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#116
post #52

A previous HN link is here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25131431 -- which links to MS's original press release -- https://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/2020/11/17/meet-the-... . That article explicitly states that it was designed originally for the xbox. I worry that going to be a very anti-consumer, anti-free-speech, DRM heavy chip that MS want to popularise as an alternative to the (still hated in some…

Boiling frog stuff... We complained about this 20 years ago, all these moves were known back then, yet here we are. More to come - TPM required to connect to the Internet and access news sources without any ability to store information on our own devices. Followed by rewriting historical articles to properly "sanitize" content.

TCPA again.

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#117

A previous HN link is here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25131431 -- which links to MS's original press release -- https://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/2020/11/17/meet-the-... . That article explicitly states that it was designed originally for the xbox. I worry that going to be a very anti-consumer, anti-free-speech, DRM heavy chip that MS want to popularise as an alternative to the (still hated in some…

So, the Trusted Platform Module itself isn't a DRM solution. It's a chip that hangs off the LPC/ISA bus and holds a crypto key generated from boot stage hashes that your BIOS, bootloader, and operating system provide to it. The idea is that all of those hashes together form a key that would change if any stage were tampered with, and that by encrypting things with the key you can prove that those particular things ha…

> It's not particularly practical to build a DRM scheme out of a Trusted Platform Module ... What they're looking to do is carve out space in Ring 3 that Ring 0 can't touch.

Which is precisely what you would want if you were building a DRM scheme - you just aren't being imaginative enough. It's always important to keep in mind that bad actors are typically just as smart and capable as you are.

User hostile practices across the board benefit greatly from the ability to attest to the precise combination of binaries that were booted. Locked down devices are built upon that foundation - no custom ROMs, no jailbreaks, walled garden app stores, and DRM.

Unfortunately, those capabilities are a fundamental building block for securing devices in general. The same technology that can be used by an abusive manufacturer, publisher, or government to secure a device against the user can also be used by the user to secure the device against others. The key difference is in who holds the keys for the root of trust.

(To that end, some modern secure boot implementations manage to get this bit right by allowing you to specify your own set of public keys before locking down the UEFI interface with a password.)

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#118
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the Trusted Platform Module itself isn't a DRM solution. It's a chip that hangs off the LPC/ISA bus and holds a crypto key generated from boot stage hashes that your BIOS, bootloader, and operating system provide to it. The idea is that all of those hashes together form a key that would change if any stage were tampered with, and that by encrypting things with the key you can prove that those particular things ha…

I see Pluton more as a "competitor" to Apple's Secure Enclave Processor and Google's Titan chip, and getting rid of the nightmare that TPM was/is.

I thought that specific implementations had issues in the past but that the concept of a TPM in general was fine?

The Intel ME and AMD PSP, on the other hand, are proper nightmares. For that matter, so is any other "security co-processor" that operates as an unauditable black box below ring 0 (presumably this applies to both Apple's and Google's solutions).

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#119
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of open source software that provides a fantastic user experience to developers , perhaps the solution is somehow getting some users to work on your open source product when developers aren't your intended users.

Even as a developer the things I want just don't work reliably: 1. Bluetooth; Audio especially, but all BT is flaky. 2. Low Latency audio; I have tried Jack on numerous machines and always find myself staring at high latency buffers because the kernel audio driver can't perform any better, and then there's how often it just ... goes silent without any trace in the logs. 3. Suspend and battery usage are, in general, s…

Driver issues are generally down (AFAIK) to proprietary hardware being shrouded in secrecy. Being forced to reverse engineer a particular component because the manufacturer won't share the spec sheet is a significant drain on the already comparatively limited resources of FOSS software development.

Re: “Microsoft Pluton Hardware Security Coming to Our CPUs”: AMD, Intel, Qualcomm

#120
post #78

I wonder if it will be one of the inferior technologies that were forced by Microsoft even outside of their Windows world. Like it happened with UEFI (that has no multithreading, uses PE as a format, Microsoft C ugly coding convention, bloated), SecureBoot (that was designed to stop anything non-Windows instead of real security), UTF-16 (everyone except them and JavaScript uses UTF-8), and so on. The list is long.

You can't forget Java with UTF-16. I feel like Java is an even bigger culprit since the whole language assumes it and there are no real alternatives.

Not only was Java created when there was no real alternative, modern implementations a more efficient representation internally, since Java 9 (we are at 15 now), just keep the outside interface as UTF-16 for backwards compatibility, we don't need a Python 3 experience.

https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/254

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