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Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

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Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#101

Post by tastyfreeze »

davidhbolton wrote: post #81

I've seen no mention of the myriad other uses we make from petroleum other than transport uses. There's 144 (out of 6000) listed here. https://www.ranken-energy.com/index.php/products-made-from-p... It would be a pretty bleak society without many of these never mind all of the various medicinal stuff such as antiseptics, antihistamines, vitamin capsules, cortisone, glycerin, asparin

Without ability to synthesize medications society would need to go back to herbal medicines. Too bad 90% of society knows jack squat about the natural sources of commonly used medications.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#102

Post by hinkley »

> The trick to maximising timber production is to employ coppicing – cultivating trees such as ash or willow that resprout from their own stump, becoming ready for harvest again in five to 15 years. This way you can ensure a sustained supply of timber and not face an energy crisis once you’ve deforested your surroundings.

Coppice and pollard creates 'water shoots' - long, straight, copious branches. For crafting material, the taper of the material creates problems, so coppice gives you better results.

Similarly, charcoal made from coppiced wood will have a fairly uniform diameter, and few side branches to create snags. Post-industrial, that should allow you to make more charcoal per batch, but I don't know if that matters as much for brick retorts.

For steel making, I don't know how important air gaps are versus calorie content of the furnace. Uniformity would certainly get you more calories into it but might also suffocate the fire.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#103

Post by Aperocky »

canniballectern wrote: post #93
Aperocky wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Earth is entirely water. The poor fish can develop mega brains but they would still be more or less stuck under water with no real viable technologies.

As land creatures, we haven't explored the underwater tech tree in much detail. If there are fishpeople with mega brains out there somewhere, they might have figured out some stuff that we haven't.

like fire, metallurgy?

They are stuck behind bronze age. I just don't see any technology without having these things as prerequisites. Even electricity is generally impossible when you live in a big conductor.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#104

Post by godelski »

canniballectern wrote: post #93
Aperocky wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Earth is entirely water. The poor fish can develop mega brains but they would still be more or less stuck under water with no real viable technologies.

As land creatures, we haven't explored the underwater tech tree in much detail. If there are fishpeople with mega brains out there somewhere, they might have figured out some stuff that we haven't.

There are certain limitations we know about though. Like that making a spaceship would be more difficult. Not only getting out of the water and then into space, but just that you have to have your capsule at a higher pressure. Though landing might be a bit easier because you don't have to use boats to get people out. But then landing and exploring another planet will be much harder, and don't get me started on what their airlocks would be like. Or clean rooms! Hell, anything optical or electronic you're going to have a much harder time with.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#105

Post by OJFord »

function_seven wrote: post #62
robin_reala wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default en-GB pronunciation is njuːz.

Wow, what a blind spot I have. Of course. When I imagine a Briton saying it, I hear that pronunciation. I'm en-US, obviously :)

Ah, well, I neglected to think/realise AmE was generally 'nooze' too... So I might have to retract 'most dialects' (at least in the way I meant it which was counting speakers rather than distinct dialects).

The other form you often see this in is long 'u's being 'oo' rather than (as I would say) roughly 'ew'. (Duplicate, repudiate, muse, etc.)

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#106

Post by generalizations »

mariusor wrote: post #39
hesdeadjim wrote: post #22

It's easy for me to end up existentially depressed if I go too far down this line of thinking. But, frankly, we are fucked here on Earth. We're consuming resources at an exponential rate with a population way, way outside what the planet can support sustainably. And we won't fix it before it's too late, because our base human nature wants more, bigger, better at the expense of all else. I'm with Musk on this, the onl…

> I'm with Musk on this, the only way we survive is to get the hell off Earth. The problem with this line of thinking is is that when people say "we" they don't really mean it in "the human kind" sense. Because that's either logistically impossible, or if it's not, you get to leave with the same people that want "bigger, better" and they'll ruin it for everyone else. So educating these people should come first no mat…

> The problem with this line of thinking is is that when people say "we" they don't really mean it in "the human kind" sense.

I think they mean it in the 'species' sense: that there's another planet that serves as a redundant node in the network of the human species. If one node fails, another is on hand to keep the network going and rebuild the failing node.

> So educating these people should come first

People who talk about 'educating others' on some important thing often convey a deep sense of hubris. I hope that's not actually true of you, but please just be aware that your comment implies this.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#107

Post by jbay808 »

mikewarot wrote: post #50
lawrenceyan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an issue. Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. The key foundations of human intelligence and ingenuity will always remains regardless of whether or not fossil fuels exist for us to exploit. Non-renewable resources only served to speed up our industrialization.

> Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. No, it doesn't. Only knowledge that people consider to have value will be retained over time. Many things are lost to history, for example.. nobody knows how to make cobblestone. (Or so I'm told)

There are certainly many periods of knowledge regression in history. Following the decline of the Roman Empire, many technologies were lost for centuries. In some cases the knowledge was preserved within one geographic area but lost to another.

Even modern technology can be lost. Look inside any company with a lackluster documentation culture to see this in action on a small scale.

Even NASA had to spent considerable time re-discovering how the Saturn 5 was put together.

Edit - I think I meant this as a reply to the GP, but I'll leave it here.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#108

Post by yayr »

tartoran wrote: post #96
scotty79 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do only so much with intelligence if there are no metals or fossil fuels on your planet. With all the ingenuity you can't make reasonable amount of chemical elements that don't occur in your environment.

Wait, aren't dolphins an intelligent species? Would they have to make use of metals and fossil fuels to advance their intelligence?

as soon as they would get into using and advancing tools it would be inevitable at some point

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#109

Post by tastyfreeze »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28
hesdeadjim wrote: post #22

It's easy for me to end up existentially depressed if I go too far down this line of thinking. But, frankly, we are fucked here on Earth. We're consuming resources at an exponential rate with a population way, way outside what the planet can support sustainably. And we won't fix it before it's too late, because our base human nature wants more, bigger, better at the expense of all else. I'm with Musk on this, the onl…

> I'm with Musk on this, the only way we survive is to get the hell off Earth And as a plan, I think that's basically completely stupid. Even our worst case climate change projections give us an Earth that is incredibly more habitable than any extraterrestrial environment. The worst conditions you can find on this entire planet today are more habitable than the best you can find elsewhere in our star system. Think of…

If we can get off the planet we should at least try. This is how our species has advanced and spread across the planet. If something is in grasp we try. Many fail, some succeed.

Most of Magellan's crew died or abandoned the expedition. That doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile endeavor for our species.

Re: Could we reboot a modern civilization without fossil fuels? (2016)

#110

Post by swiley »

bilbo0s wrote: post #23
swiley wrote: post #15

Who cares about fuel, you can get a lot of energy from renewable resources and nuclear just fine, the later mostly requiring metallurgy and concrete. Much more interesting are petrochemicals, many are possible to synthesize without petroleum but it's way less economical.

How do you do the metallurgy, manufacture the concrete, or synthesize the petrochemicals in the absence of fossil fuel energy? Examples given in the article were on the scale of post nuclear conflict societal collapse. No ports, no highways, no railways, no dual use infrastructure at all. No more fossil fuel deliveries happening. No deliveries of anything. Rebuilding in that environment would be challenging in the ex…

A number of ancient civilizations managed these without fossil fuels so it's not inconceivable.
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