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WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

wtfhappenedin1971.com

351–360 of 477 posts

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that was an ahistorical period of low income equality You mean low income inequality, right? That post WWII era in which the US was pretty much the only developed nation with it's manufacturing capability still intact. That and the GI Bill explain how that era was exceptional - a large number of folks who returned from WWII got free college educations.

Do you have a source for this claim? Canada , Sweden, Switzerland, Argentina, Spain , Australia , New Zealand and arguably undeveloped India, South Africa, Brazil, Mexico and other parts of Latin America were "intact".

>> pretty much the only developed nation with it's manufacturing capability still intact > [some minor developed nations were intact] > [some undeveloped nations were intact]

Minor thoughts:

a) trivial quibble: Spain was not intact in 1940, I doubt they'd recovered that much by 1945? b) I was gonna say something bout Argentina not being a developed country, but I looked it up, and TIL that Argentina used to be super developed. TIL! c) most of those undeveloped countries had virtually no manufacturing, which is why UncleOxidant excluded them in a comment about manufacturing power

But more importantly...

The numbers I've seen bandied about (I don't have credible sources) say that the US was 50% of world GDP, and held 80% of hard currency reserves, in 1945. Supposing that's correct, even though you're technically right that the US wasn't "the only developed nation ... still intact", it's still almost-correct-in-spirit. US manufacturing capability in 1945 was way way way ahead of every other country. The point being that if the US economy experiences unusual behaviour in the period 1945 to 1971, one obvious factor is its overwhelming global supremacy in manufacturing in the immediate post-war period.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#352

Nothing, these charts are just the result of picking the wrong deflator. This chart shows what happens when you use the (correct) GDP deflator: https://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451688169e20134878d...

Can you provide more detail? I’ve definitely wondered about how general-purpose an inflation correction mechanism can be. When I see rising rents, corrected for inflation, I always wonder if maybe rent should be a more significant part of the correction, until it’s flat-ish after the correction. But then food, another universal necessity, wouldn’t be flat. Choosing the right deflator, if I’m using the word correctly,…

[deleted]

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#353

Nothing, these charts are just the result of picking the wrong deflator. This chart shows what happens when you use the (correct) GDP deflator: https://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451688169e20134878d...

Can you provide more detail? I’ve definitely wondered about how general-purpose an inflation correction mechanism can be. When I see rising rents, corrected for inflation, I always wonder if maybe rent should be a more significant part of the correction, until it’s flat-ish after the correction. But then food, another universal necessity, wouldn’t be flat. Choosing the right deflator, if I’m using the word correctly,…

It's not just hard, it's also political.

The amount of nuance can be overwhelming. CPI doesn't account for the ability of consumers to substitute inferior goods, but GDP doesn't account for the sacrifice involved in doing so. CPI focuses on consumers, while GDP focuses on all sectors. CPI includes the price of imports while GDP does not. The list goes on. Making all of these choices and keeping in mind the consequences for doing so is exhausting, but you shouldn't just pick someone who looks like the most credible person in the room and trust them because the very nuance that you were hoping to avoid allows people to torture the numbers to say anything they want, and the most credible person in the room might not want the same thing you do. GP argued that OP was torturing the numbers and I argue that GP is torturing the numbers. Who do you believe?

Here's a test to avoid getting lost in the wilderness of nuance: "What would Elysium look like in this model?"

I am referring of course to the movie where a small number of rich people live in luxury on a space station while Earth and its population have devolved into a gigantic poverty-ridden slum. In this case, CPI might show that a basic basket of food, clean water, shelter, and education have become prohibitively expensive for most humans, while the GDP measure would argue that most members of the slum can't afford clean water or proper shelter so those things shouldn't be included in the index. Instead, people live in tents and drink barely-filtered water, which are both still affordable, so what's the problem? More generally, any figure expressed in terms of dollars (GDP, value creation, etc) runs the risk of placing low weight on what happens in the slums and high weight on what happens on the space station. The average (unstated subtext: dollar-weighted) person can afford luxurious accommodation in all facets of life and sees nothing but perpetual economic improvement, so again, what's the problem?

Which metric is the right one? That depends entirely on the point you want to make, but the "Elysium test" is a very basic honesty check that catches the more egregious errors.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having witnessed dramatic declines in union membership in new European Union members, and continuing downward trend in Scandinavian countries, I feel like the drop in membership is the consequence of unions becoming powerless, not a cause. If even the large unions cannot mount any effective pressure for increasing compensation, shrug at layoffs, and are fatalistic about outsourcing, what's the point of being a…

The drip is definitely correlation until proven to be causation. So it is possible the drop was a function of a common underlying cause. The reason no other explanation makes sense to me is that any purely market based explanation, like energy or China, we would see a corresponding drop in US labor force productivity, but the whole point is that that productivity did not drop. One question i have for you is, why didn…

It's not a fair fight. In the end, there is a huge asymmetry in power, all the real power lies with the corporation. Behaving with clemency and goodwill is a privilege bestowed upon employees (and unions) that can be unilaterally revoked. If push comes to shove, the corporation can very much steamroll any resistance, especially when times are bad, and even more so once the corporation diversifies the risk by becoming a multi-national.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#356
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The period of growth was a period of massive decline in the price of energy. This is referring to the decades before 1970, not after the oil crisis. > We've since had 50 years of stagnation in energy prices. This is the period of 1970-2020. The price of oil has oscillated (jumping around, as you say) during this period, but the overall price of energy has not had a clear long-term trend. The earlier poster's argume…

Thanks. I prefer the Nixon dollar float theory. The OPEC oil crisis was only 6 months. And as you say, oil prices in general have not had a clear trend. So those don't seem related to what is being presented on WTF Happened in 1971. When the government can print money willy-nilly, it can finance any boondoggle it wants to. This free money would pull qualified people away from more productive endeavors. It makes sense…

> This free money would pull qualified people away from more productive endeavors.

If this was actually happening, we would see the impact in increasing labor prices, not stagnating labor prices.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#357
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And energy is a massive component in the price of almost everything we consume. Is it really? What would be different if energy was much cheaper? Would we have more advanced rockets or robots or phones? Better CPUs? More and cheaper housing built in dense cities? Cheaper education or medicine? More job security? Even more food? I realize that energy is an important input into some industrial processes, but I don't…

It was only a single point of the OP's that you're targeting but I have to agree (I agree with other OP points though). Would a lower energy cost bring wages up? No reason to believe that would be the case. Would it lower the cost of goods so that at least the working poor could have a better standard of living? Perhaps, but how much of the cost of a good is the energy, how much labor and raw materials? Would we see…

> [H]ow much of the cost of a good is the energy, how much labor and raw materials?

For physical goods, most of it. Raw materials in particular aren't expensive except in terms of the energy required to extract them and process them (modulo supply and demand).

For labor it's more complex, but in general falling energy costs drive capital investment in automation (displacing and lowering demand for less-skilled labor) to lower price and capture greater market share (in order to get a return on the investment of capital), lowering labor's share of the final price, and the Jevons paradox drives increased consumption of the lower priced goods (as well as the lower priced energy). Software has been driving the same sort of dynamic for a while, though the way it affects industries seems to be more contingent, 'lumpier', and less predictable (eg. in hindsight, the disappearance of the travel agent as a result of online booking was somewhat obvious, but AirBnB effectively adding a lot more inventory to the market wasn't).

Not sure what happens when software and energy both more directly affect each others' supply and consumption, but the effect on the rest of the economy is going to be... interesting. Smarter energy grids that shift the economics of energy plants and sources at different scales; vehicles, homes, factories, & data centers that can all adjust their energy use/storage to take advantage of spot pricing, energy costs driving the ROI of training machine learning models etc. and thus changing the return on investment in compute capacity (and in software efficiency), and so on. There are a lot of feedback loops, and as "software eats the world", more (unanticipated) feedback loops will be created.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#358
I dunno why this keeps getting shared. it is just an advertisement masquerading as information in order to promote a bitcoin investing service. The selection of charts demonstrate data mining and do not align with the 1971 target. IN some of the chart you can see that the trend began before 1970. in others it began after 1970. IN other charts there is no change. In other charts there is exponential growth but it seems steeper after 1970 because the data appears compressed on the lower-part of the y axis. This is why log charts are used for exponential growth.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#359

The author obviously wants you to believe that it was the abandonment of the gold standard, but there are several other theories that have more credence with mainstream economists. The early 70's was the start of a horrible period of stagflation: stagnation coupled with inflation. Some do blame the loss of the gold standard, but the leading theory is the OPEC oil crisis. Others blame market regulations, the EPA was p…

...and also legislative reforms that wound up being bad for the regular people, like electronic voting and removing secret votes in Congress. Some of the issues might have been corrected, but the lack of a secret vote meant legislators became less inclined to vote against their backers to the benefit of their constituents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Reorganization_Act...

...and the re-emergence of corporate consolidation and the rise of the conglomerate in the 1960s, which reduced the power of labor to negotiate for a fair share of the gains.

Re: WTF Happened in 1971? (2019)

#360
post #107

Plenty of events to choose from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971 Highlights: - "A new stock market index called the Nasdaq Composite debuts." - "Starbucks, a major coffeehouse and outlet in worldwide, is founded in the U.S. State of Washington." - "The U.S. ends its trade embargo of China." - "President Richard Nixon declares the U.S. War on Drugs." - "Southwest Airlines, a low-cost carrier, begins its first…

you can say the same for probably any year of the past 50 years
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