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The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

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Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#61
post #15

Thanks for submitting this. I did the interview. I think you have to listen to it to get the full experience. But here are some things that were interesting and surprising from the interview: The UNIX room - The unix room at bell labs was a shared room where they would hang out and have coffee. Some people worked exclusively in the UNIX room, like Ken Thompson, but most worked in their private offices and came to the…

It was an enthralling interview, thanks so much for doing it!

I've met folks who worked in Bell Labs and feel enormous envy for the opportunity they enjoyed by working there. Sadly, Bell Labs now seems like a distant, never-to-be-repeated experiment. There's so much intense focus these days on short-term ROI and responding to market pressures. Creativity and discovery very much take a back-seat to predictability and keeping the stock market "happy".

Are there modern-day places like Bell Labs? Or am I idealizing what it was like there?

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also recommend his book, it was an excellent read. Do you know of any more books that are similar? Historical and a little bit "technical"?

The Soul of a New Machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine

Not very technical but absolutely essential reading. This book is the main reason I became a programmer.

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#63
post #15

Thanks for submitting this. I did the interview. I think you have to listen to it to get the full experience. But here are some things that were interesting and surprising from the interview: The UNIX room - The unix room at bell labs was a shared room where they would hang out and have coffee. Some people worked exclusively in the UNIX room, like Ken Thompson, but most worked in their private offices and came to the…

Really enjoyed the interview, thanks for making it.

I’ll for sure be including a link to it in one of my upcoming newsletters.

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#64
post #15

Thanks for submitting this. I did the interview. I think you have to listen to it to get the full experience. But here are some things that were interesting and surprising from the interview: The UNIX room - The unix room at bell labs was a shared room where they would hang out and have coffee. Some people worked exclusively in the UNIX room, like Ken Thompson, but most worked in their private offices and came to the…

I really appreciate that you included a transcript of the interview.

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#65
post #58
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fascinating. How is it that we seem to have lost that capability to do things in software over so few decades?

There is a talk by Jonathan Blow about this topic: Preventing the Collapse of Civilization / Jonathan Blow (Thekla, Inc) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko

A lot of what Blow says is not entirely accurate. For example he presents a simple picture of declining software quality over time, but anyone who was around at the time knows that both desktop OSes and desktop applications (including web browsers) were certainly much more crashy, and probably more buggy in general, than they are now. Likely quality has started to decline again over the past decade, but it's still not remotely back to where it was. It's hard not to suspect that Blow passes over this because it tends to contradict his "higher-level languages and more infrastructure → declining quality" argument. Section 7.4, "Programming Environments Matter" http://philip.greenspun.com/research/tr1408/lessons-learned.... of Phil Greenspun's, apparently, 1993 SITE CONTROLLER dissertation https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/7048 makes the same "we don't expect software to work any more" lament which Blow delivers at 22:17 https://youtu.be/ZSRHeXYDLko?t=1337 :

> Another reason the "horde of C hackers" approach has worked remarkably well is that, although the resultant software is rife with bugs, most users have no experience with anything better. When an MBA's Macintosh Quadra crashes due to a C programmer's error in Microsoft Excel, he doesn't say "I remember back in 1978 that my VAX 11/780, with only one tenth the processing power of this machine, had memory protection between processes so that a bug in one program couldn't corrupt the operating system or other applications." Rather, he is likely to say, "Well, it is still easier than using pencil and paper."

but places the blame on a switch to lower-level languages and runtime systems. The improvements on the desktop over about the '00s seem to be attributable to (not an expert) the mainstreaming of, and continued development of, the WinNT and OS X platforms, increasing use of memory-managed languages and/or more recent versions of C++ in applications, and adoption of online crash-reporting infrastructure (though probably also increasing use of increasingly effective error-detection tools, which I assume Blow is fine with as they don't create a runtime dependency). So it certainly seems that Greenspun is more correct than Blow, which is certainly not to say that adding more layers of infrastructure has always been an unqualified good.

Also, Blow's talk has a very '90s focus on crashers, error messages, and the like, but many of the worst regressions in software over the last 10 or 20 years don't manifest as crashers or other straightforward bugs at all; and when they do manifest as bugs the bugginess is often intertwined with architectural issues in a way that makes a bug-hunting mentality relatively ineffective. For example, the pinnacle of WYSIWYG rich text editing was probably about Word 4 for Macintosh, which was a slightly awkward but workable mating of stylesheets to the WYSIWYG UI. Unfortunately it was something of a local optimum: further progress on the problem largely requires serious developer thought and/or further user education. So everyone more or less decided to instead pretend that rich text is a solved problem, and things have largely been gently regressing since then. Which is probably part of the deep background to the GMail rich-text jank Blow complains about at 23:47 https://youtu.be/ZSRHeXYDLko?t=1427 . “We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them”, as Lincoln said. ;)

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#66
post #53

K&R is the best known, but his other books are terrific. Software Tools showed how programs can simultaneously be powerful and simple, and decades later I still use things from Kernighan and Pike. Just today I wrote an AWK one-liner to process a log file.

Indeed! Their book Elements Of Programming Style is also a fun short read

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#67
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose this is just matter of personal preference, but I'm not a big fan of this style of podcast either - although I did greatly enjoy the episode! I just felt it would have been even better if it were simply a conversation, without jumping back and forth in time, inserting explanations (although they were helpful), etc. As you said in the podcast - "start at the beginning". If it had then proceeded from the begi…

That makes sense. Part of my process is having people listen through to the interview and let me know where they get confused. Then I add in explanations there. The explanations mean people don't get lost if they don't know what punch cards are or fortan for instance. I also think there are many straight interview podcasts and I'm trying to do something different.

I think your podcast and format is great, keep doing it and refining it. I look forward to listening to each new episode because of the interesting and wide ranging guests and the broader viewpoint you look for in the discussions.

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#68
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this episode when I first heard it, but reading your recap of it reminds me of a similar story from my college days. I had a CompSci professor who had worked at Bell Labs, which was all of 10 minutes down the street from the college. I remember he was having problems with printing something in the computer lab one week, so he wrote a driver for the printer over the weekend. This would have been about 1997 or…

Kinda reminds me of the Erdos number ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erd%C5%91s_number )

Could give this one a name. A couple of tries, off the top of my head:

Unix founder number

Bell Labs number

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brian is super modest and claims to be a horrible programmer but he is comparing himself to Ken Thompson, who he thinks is just incredible. Ken once wrote a disassembler, assembler and B interpreter for a mini-computer that ran a printer they were struggling with, in a couple of days, so that they could get it printing again. This blew Brian's mind. For the next level up here's Ken (in a very interesting conversati…

Thats a terrific story! Another interesting thing is that they were often working on very practical problems, grounded to the real world. The second unix system, the PDP 11 machine was being used for patent applications, so they had to build text processing tools and also be very careful not to break anything that the patent clerks needed. I think this combination was the key, smart people and practical problems.

Yes. What I read somewhere is that the early Unix team (some of whom had just come off the Multics project) got the full use of a spare minicomputer that was in the Labs, to build an early protototype of Unix (may or not be the first one), only by promising their manager that they would build text processing software on top of it that would be useful for the Labs' patent and other text processing work. And they delivered. Some of that work became a software suite called Writer's Workbench, IIRC, and some of it became the powerful Unix command line filters and such that we still love and use today, such as cut, paste, join, diff, tr and more - "more" as in "etc.", not the pager tool, although maybe that one too, ha ha.

Re: The Birth of Unix with Brian Kernighan

#70
post #69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a terrific story! Another interesting thing is that they were often working on very practical problems, grounded to the real world. The second unix system, the PDP 11 machine was being used for patent applications, so they had to build text processing tools and also be very careful not to break anything that the patent clerks needed. I think this combination was the key, smart people and practical problems.

Yes. What I read somewhere is that the early Unix team (some of whom had just come off the Multics project) got the full use of a spare minicomputer that was in the Labs, to build an early protototype of Unix (may or not be the first one), only by promising their manager that they would build text processing software on top of it that would be useful for the Labs' patent and other text processing work. And they deliv…

The list of tools I mentioned is not exact. Some may have been created later.
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