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The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

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Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#41

Post by riccardomc »

toyg wrote: post #30
gadders wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved it, but I went there for the ancient Roman aspect and was kind of sad that that has been overlaid with the Roman Catholic stuff.

And you didn't even mention the tacky "King of Italy" coffins. I was discussing this yesterday with friends: the building is still a church but a few years ago it was sold to the State (so the Church doesn't have to be responsible for the upkeep...). This means the State could, in theory, throw out all the Catholic paraphernalia and ripristinate a classical-looking interior, if local government so wished. We don't ha…

Besides the "tacky Kings of Italy" coffins there's also Raffaello Sanzio's tomb[1], the famous painter/ninja turtle. Did you know? Does he have more dignity to be in there according to your criteria? What is better "Reinassance" or "Ancient Rome"?

You mention that there are "philosophical and practical grounds" to oppose this kind of "restauration", yet you say that "it's a shame" we cannot do it, suggesting we should indeed prefer erasing centuries of Italian history to please tourists and attract more funds.

It is remarkably funny how the "return to order", "purity", "glory of the roman empire" was exactly the same rhetoric and aesthetic of the Italian Fascist party. I guess this could be counted among the massive missteps you mentioned?

I think you would have a much better experience if you just enjoy the stratification of history and art that Rome, Italy and the Pantheon represent instead of projecting a subjective idea of how things should be.

And yes, it's a tacky mess at times, but is not up to you, tourists, a party or even a government to decide on a scale of dignity of historic periods.

edit: added Raphael's wikpedia page reference

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#42

Post by coryrc »

kolbe wrote: post #36

While reading this article, I thought “I don’t think Romans used rebar, and yet this still stands 2000 years later?” Turns out, someone on Quora had the same question, and the answer lies in the fact that Romans did not use the same recipe we use for concrete. They included volcanic ash, which creates a stronger chemical bond, and obviates the need for rebar to some degree. A quick google search shows there’s a small…

It's the shape: everything is in compression. You could do it with modern concrete (w/o rebar) and it would also last a long time.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#43

Post by toyg »

adolph wrote: post #37
toyg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you didn't even mention the tacky "King of Italy" coffins. I was discussing this yesterday with friends: the building is still a church but a few years ago it was sold to the State (so the Church doesn't have to be responsible for the upkeep...). This means the State could, in theory, throw out all the Catholic paraphernalia and ripristinate a classical-looking interior, if local government so wished. We don't ha…

When you say “classical” do you mean authentic to the way it looked when ancient Roman’s used it? It might have been just as tacky back in the day. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/true-colors-1788...

It's not really the color (I agree entirely with your link), but rather that the Savoy kings weren't exactly great leaders (they failed all their direct military initiatives, more or less, at various points looked even annoyed by the responsibility they ended up with, etc etc), still they try to claim a place "among the gods" and their mausolei are very noticeable and garish. Raffaello Sanzio has a much more understated corner, and he was Raffaello bloody Sanzio.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#44

Post by tsjq »

cfontes wrote: post #21
xenocratus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad Turkey decided to convert it back from a museum to a mosque [1]. Guess I won't be visiting Istanbul, then... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53366307

I've been there as a mosque and it was fine, I am agnostic but from a super Catholic family, didn't bother me or the rest of the group at all, it was quite cool. The smell thought, was super funky, I guess that is what carpets and 1000's of feets do :) You will be missing out, Turkey is a super cool country, awesome food, super very proud people. Haia Sofia is not even in the TOP 10 of my list of cool stuff to do in…

What's in your list Top10 in Istanbul ? Curious

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#45

Post by toyg »

riccardomc wrote: post #41
toyg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you didn't even mention the tacky "King of Italy" coffins. I was discussing this yesterday with friends: the building is still a church but a few years ago it was sold to the State (so the Church doesn't have to be responsible for the upkeep...). This means the State could, in theory, throw out all the Catholic paraphernalia and ripristinate a classical-looking interior, if local government so wished. We don't ha…

Besides the "tacky Kings of Italy" coffins there's also Raffaello Sanzio's tomb[1], the famous painter/ninja turtle. Did you know? Does he have more dignity to be in there according to your criteria? What is better "Reinassance" or "Ancient Rome"? You mention that there are "philosophical and practical grounds" to oppose this kind of "restauration", yet you say that "it's a shame" we cannot do it, suggesting we shoul…

Lol, calm down - no need to godwinize. As I said, it will never happen. It would be pretty cool though, IMHO, even just as a temporary experiment. And yes, if the Pantheon were to be "restored", Raffaello should be moved too.

> if you just enjoy the stratification of history and art that Rome, Italy and the Pantheon represent

I can do that while still expressing a personal preference for some elements over others.

> is not up to you, tourists, a party or even a government to decide

I disagree on this point. Short of blowing it up, the community of today has a right to decide on the sorts of a historic building in the same way their predecessors did. Rome is a living city, not just a museum, and it has a right to change today like it did in the past. Respect for the accumulation and stratification of cultural elements does not mean the passive acceptance of everything our predecessors did, particularly when some of them were not particularly nice people either.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#46

Post by mstade »

matfior wrote: post #40
mstade wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. Walking in to the Pantheon, especially off season when there aren't as many tourists, is like traveling back in time. I can't help but think about all the things that may (or may not) have happened in that space, and my imagination immediately runs wild. Whenever I find myself in Rome I have to go there, it's like a calling almost. I have much the same feelings when walking around Forum Romanum, my imagination…

Best season (at least for me) is end of Spring, beginning of Summer. Not too hot, plenty of sun. Rome is an extremely complicated place to live in and navigate but its beauty can be sometimes out of this world.

I couldn't agree more!

Also in my experience this applies to a lot of other places in Italy as well. Sardinia for example is an absolute marvel end of May, early June, before the summer rush starts kicking into gear.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#47

Post by arethuza »

cfontes wrote: post #21
xenocratus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad Turkey decided to convert it back from a museum to a mosque [1]. Guess I won't be visiting Istanbul, then... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53366307

I've been there as a mosque and it was fine, I am agnostic but from a super Catholic family, didn't bother me or the rest of the group at all, it was quite cool. The smell thought, was super funky, I guess that is what carpets and 1000's of feets do :) You will be missing out, Turkey is a super cool country, awesome food, super very proud people. Haia Sofia is not even in the TOP 10 of my list of cool stuff to do in…

Turkey is (or at least was) a very popular holiday destination from the UK - and I've been loads of times. However, I did get a lot of grief at US immigration once when I was asked about all of the Turkish stamps in my passport... and had to spend twenty minutes or so explaining why I liked Turkey, which fortunately is pretty easy.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#48

Post by smegger001 »

adolph wrote: post #39
trianglem wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can plastic be used for reinforcement of the concrete in any way?

The ideal is a non-stretchy material. Concrete is strong under compression, but has weak tensile strength. Rebar significantly increases the tensile strength of the structure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebar

Yeah what you would really want is a carbon fiber or fiber glass rebar for reinforcement rather than steel to avoid corrosion.

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#49

Post by gvd »

cfontes wrote: post #21
xenocratus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad Turkey decided to convert it back from a museum to a mosque [1]. Guess I won't be visiting Istanbul, then... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53366307

I've been there as a mosque and it was fine, I am agnostic but from a super Catholic family, didn't bother me or the rest of the group at all, it was quite cool. The smell thought, was super funky, I guess that is what carpets and 1000's of feets do :) You will be missing out, Turkey is a super cool country, awesome food, super very proud people. Haia Sofia is not even in the TOP 10 of my list of cool stuff to do in…

The problem is that they are a proud people

Re: The Pantheon: The ancient building still being used after 2,000 years

#50

Post by bradknowles »

coldcode wrote: post #16

Building the Pantheon today would be a demanding feat, imagine building it 2000 years ago and even imagining the dome would hold up when you started the work, much less for 2000 years. Whoever the architect/engineer was, they were unbelievably bold.

You couldn’t rebuild it today.

It still has the world’s largest cupola, and we have still don’t know how to build one that big, otherwise someone would have already done it.

So, it would not be possible to build such a building today, even though they did build one thousands of years ago.

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