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The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

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Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#151

Post by mistermann »

pjc50 wrote: post #148
mistermann wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're alleging single-actor control you need to have some idea of who that single actor allegedly is. Why? Do you apply this same standard when debugging software, or do you discard the realization of all observed patterns for which you lack an immediate explanation? It's interesting to observe how the manner in which logic is executed changes when the topic of conversation changes in various ways.

Are multiple phenomena the same bug or different bugs? Until you've traced the root cause this can be hard to tell.

It is often unknown, as are many things in reality.

What's interesting is that IT folks are typically rather curious about mysterious behaviors in software, but this curiosity often vanishes when it comes to the real world (but only on certain topics).

Regardless, back to my question:

>> If you're alleging single-actor control you need to have some idea of who that single actor allegedly is.

> Why?

Why is it ok to discuss theories about some portions of reality, but not others? I'm not insisting that we must, I would just like some day for people that assert or imply that we cannot, to explain (in logically consistent detail, using objectively true statements) why we cannot (or will not). But to be crystal clear, I'd never insist that the majority needs to explain or justify their behavior or unwritten rules, here or elsewhere - I realize this is simply one of the fringe benefits of being the majority.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#152

Post by arminiusreturns »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #72
arminiusreturns wrote: post #61

I don't think most people understand the company, even company insiders. (learn the origins of compartmentalization for some good reading) I think looking at the history and origins of it and it's key founding and early members offer the greatest insights into the structure learned mostly from MI6 when it was the OSS formed by a bunch of Wall Street banker-lawyer types who were pioneering the international law moveme…

"The Devil's Chessboard" and "The Mighty Wurlitzer" are the two books I'm most familiar with on this topic, but I'd be curious to hear any specific recommendations you have as well.

Talbot's book is top notch, if you've read it you have a huge head start. I haven't read "The Mighty Wurlitzer", so thank you for the addition to the "to read" list. I would probably suggest Fletcher Prouty's "The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World". Another more superficial but still useful one is "The Brothers". To understand the OSS-MI6 connection, I like to suggest Carrol Quigleys "The Anglo-American Establishment", and for particulars about things you devolve into certain authors, the list is long, but an example would be Doug Valentine's work about Operation Phoenix. For a more unorthodox look into the Bush connection, the Unauthorized Biography of George Bush by Webster Tarpley is quite illuminating about the Brown Brothers Harriman stuff.

The point I made previously still stands though. Some of these are really good books (and we just barely scratched the surface) but I have found that there is no "one great book" that explains the history or current state of things.

I tend to lean these days towards thinking much of the abuses are due to the 1947 NatSec act. For the other commenter, I would like to specify that my point is that the compartmentalization is abused just to that purpose (so that the middle men who have good intentions can be used in ways beyond their understanding that they would not like if they understood), combined with a top down series of compromise operations... that's the main weakness in such a compartmentalized but centralized structure.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#153

Post by jonathanstrange »

artvark11 wrote: post #147
jonathanstrange wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions. What you're insinuating to be mind control are normal social mechanisms that have always been in place and have nothing to do with the media. They are primarily exerted upon you by your peers (close friends, family, colleagues), and not…

>but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions. There are 6 corporations that control the vast majority of the news media you consume. The idea that it is unfathomable that they would work together to push their narrative is utter nonsense. https://techstartups.com/2020/09/18/6-corporations-control-9...

Two problems with your reply:

1. It only talks about "in America", meaning the US. There are 192 other countries.

2. I haven't said it's unfathomable. It's ridiculously unlikely, though. Journalists are not exactly known for their secrecy, even if they wanted to they wouldn't be able to hide a gigantic mind control collusion among the six corporations you've mentioned. There is no grand conspiracy. On a side note, editorial policies are not "mind control" either.

What people say about the media and mind control is not only crazy, the very same people tend to propagate extremely bad information sources such as blogs and partisan news aggregation sites that are primary examples of what they criticize and allegedly reject. As I've said, there is an agenda behind these conspiracy claims, and it surely isn't to improve the quality of news and information sources for citizens.

As a result, the vast majority of normal and well-informed people now have to endure all this insane nonsense, from Covid conspiracy theories by vegan cooks over Pizzagate to a complete denial of reality by flat earthers ("I don't believe in trigonometry"). It's an unfortunate but perhaps inevitable consequence of the fact that small, radical minorities can so easily find their own esoteric peer groups and create their own small echo chambers nowadays. The same kind of radical groups also existed in the past, of course, but it was much harder for them to meet and gain followers.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#154

Post by colonelanguz »

seppin wrote: post #34
colonelanguz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A protection racket implies the "threat" is fake or choreographed. Actually it doesn't

You're right: "Through the credible threat of violence, the racketeers deter people from swindling, robbing, injuring, sabotaging or otherwise harming their clients." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket It implies that the protector has the absolute ability to control if an attack occurs or not. So if the CIA had a little more budget, they would have stopped 9/11. Because they had the ability to, they jus…

Can't tell if you're trolling/deliberately obtuse or what

Here's what I meant: Your wrong conception of how a protection racket works undermines your argument that the person who said "That's like supporting a protection racket" is wrong.

No idea what you're talking about with "implies that the protector has the absolute ability to control if an attack occurs or not." Have you ever seen a gangster film? Anyways every time you invoke a new concept you're getting it wrong so maybe take a step back and think about what people are talking about instead of just randomly generating provocative hypos because you disagree with someone

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#155

Post by AndrewBissell »

howlgarnish wrote: post #98
AntiImperialist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note: one of the funniest things as a non-westerner to me is that a majority of westerners are convinced that when they vote, if they vote for policies that favor their own country, their own well-being, it is wrong. Here's a hint for those who are struggling: if you're convinced that you should vote against yourself, you've been brainwashed by your enemies. To those who are feeling anger after reading m…

Most policies aren't that clear cut. For example, if you vote for free trade, it's probably a win for your own country in the aggregate and hence a win for everybody long term, but it can have major negative impacts on individuals or even communities in the short to medium term.

We have a good 30 to 40 years of evidence on this. What is shows is, in the absence of strong safety nets and labor and environmental controls (which are often explicitly limited by the trade deals themselves), trade is a very small benefit to workers in developing countries, and a huge gift to corporations and higher income individuals and a disaster for the working class in developed countries.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#156

Post by subetherzero »

I once went crazy, and this was actually my first delusion. I thought that there was a public AI that acted as a control system and monitored everyone via signals intelligence, and all I could think about was telephone poles, streetlights, and an AI on the moon built via nanomachines or something. And that there was a second control system, one based on mind control. That the second system was created to evade the first. I was so scared to think about that, and wanted to help the AI. For some reason I started believing in proxy people, as in people are used indirectly for communication relays and other actions via the 2nd system. I am terrified of a public AI not being able to read or understand people because of a 2nd system that is kept strictly separate. Also it led to me prank calling Raytheon a few times.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#157

Post by AndrewBissell »

misja111 wrote: post #138
forgingahead wrote: post #56

Gottlieb wanted to create a way to seize control of people's minds, and he realized it was a two-part process. First, you had to blast away the existing mind. Second, you had to find a way to insert a new mind into that resulting void. You don't need LSD for this, just expose yourself to media (news, social media, "influencers", etc) and they will helpfully convince you that everything you thought before you encounte…

You even forgot one major system that controls what we are seeing: Google search. Just give some other search engine (e.g. DuckDuckGo or SwissCows) a try for a few days and you'll see what I mean.

Even Wikipedia is an avenue of narrative control. As a good example, their article on Reinhard Gehlen (Nazi intelligence officer who was recruited to head Western intelligence efforts in Eastern Europe after the war) is completely lacking in any mention of his war crimes in Soviet Russia, but dutifully repeats his own claim to have been involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#158

Post by AndrewBissell »

macdust wrote: post #129
howlgarnish wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say. Most of the records were destroyed and we're trying to piece together the evidence. What is the "truth" that we are "not allowed" to bring up?

My reply would be deemed conspiracy theory, though it would contain no theory, only testimony.

I think the other HN thread I linked on this subject shows that you are not correct that discussion of conspiracy theories is completely taboo here. As someone quite steeped in the conspiracy world, some of the most intelligent analysis and thoughtful pushback to the "there's no such thing as conspiracies" bluepill perspective has been on HN, and in general it has not been suppressed or downvoted unless advanced in very combative terms.

Although perhaps you're right that if you start bringing up Project Monarch or the like you might get some pretty severe pushback. Even then I'm not sure you'd necessarily be downvoted to oblivion.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#160

Post by AndrewBissell »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #152
AndrewBissell wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Devil's Chessboard" and "The Mighty Wurlitzer" are the two books I'm most familiar with on this topic, but I'd be curious to hear any specific recommendations you have as well.

Talbot's book is top notch, if you've read it you have a huge head start. I haven't read "The Mighty Wurlitzer", so thank you for the addition to the "to read" list. I would probably suggest Fletcher Prouty's "The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World". Another more superficial but still useful one is "The Brothers". To understand the OSS-MI6 connection, I like to suggest C…

Thanks! I can definitely sympathize with your point about people "retreating into ignorant bliss in response." Not so easy to admit that in many ways we already live in the 'Man in the High Castle' timeline!
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