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The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

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Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#111

Post by AntiImperialist »

howlgarnish wrote: post #98
AntiImperialist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note: one of the funniest things as a non-westerner to me is that a majority of westerners are convinced that when they vote, if they vote for policies that favor their own country, their own well-being, it is wrong. Here's a hint for those who are struggling: if you're convinced that you should vote against yourself, you've been brainwashed by your enemies. To those who are feeling anger after reading m…

Most policies aren't that clear cut. For example, if you vote for free trade, it's probably a win for your own country in the aggregate and hence a win for everybody long term, but it can have major negative impacts on individuals or even communities in the short to medium term.

True. What is also true is if you play fair while others don't, you won't be able to play for long. So, it's also unfair to continue enabling foul play. Free trade can only exist in presence of certain strongly enforced rules and they are not easy to enforce across borders.

But that's a different discussion. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about those who aren't able to think rationally through these things because they have been exposed to targeted techniques by adversaries. They're triggered into an emotional response every time they encounter other ways of thinking than they have been programmed to.

Let us think as PR firms for a second. There is a lot of nuances in greater truths which can be tuned to make anything sound reasonable. We can design experiments a certain way, we can frame questions a certain way, highlight certain things and present it to the journalists... who will happily publish our well thought our well reasoned ideas, backed by stats and surveys and facts and experiments. Our biggest problem is the rest of the truth. When people realize that, our messages will be of less value. Other PR firms with other interests who benefit from the other parts of the truth and people can make reasoned decisions as different realities are presented to them by different interests. We'll have to constantly do better and present our side.

That's how the PR industry has been functioning for the last 100 years or so. I think that's all fair.

But what if there was a way to prevent people from even navigating to the other parts of the truth that we, as a PR firm, don't want them to?

There is and it is widely used today. Once the cat is out of the bag, unfortunately, everyone has to play like that... and that is what has been happening. There's a reason why calm well-reasoned ideological discourses are less of a thing now. Everything evokes strong emotions and rational discussions barely happen.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#112

Post by AntiImperialist »

jacobush wrote: post #108
AntiImperialist wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note: one of the funniest things as a non-westerner to me is that a majority of westerners are convinced that when they vote, if they vote for policies that favor their own country, their own well-being, it is wrong. Here's a hint for those who are struggling: if you're convinced that you should vote against yourself, you've been brainwashed by your enemies. To those who are feeling anger after reading m…

”If what I say makes you angry I’m right and you are brainwashed.”

That would be great but the problem is that I may be wrong... but I'll never hear why or be able to have reasonable discussion with anyone because your brainwashing prevents you from remaining calm and explaining.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#113

Post by jacobush »

AntiImperialist wrote: post #112
jacobush wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”If what I say makes you angry I’m right and you are brainwashed.”

That would be great but the problem is that I may be wrong... but I'll never hear why or be able to have reasonable discussion with anyone because your brainwashing prevents you from remaining calm and explaining.

So, people who disagree with you, can never calmly explain their position? You also expect this state of affairs to never change.

That must be frustrating.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#114

Post by txmachinery »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #89
forgingahead wrote: post #56

Gottlieb wanted to create a way to seize control of people's minds, and he realized it was a two-part process. First, you had to blast away the existing mind. Second, you had to find a way to insert a new mind into that resulting void. You don't need LSD for this, just expose yourself to media (news, social media, "influencers", etc) and they will helpfully convince you that everything you thought before you encounte…

That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions. What you're insinuating to be mind control are normal social mechanisms that have always been in place and have nothing to do with the media. They are primarily exerted upon you by your peers (close friends, family, colleagues), and not…

"The media" and "social media" may not be controlled by a single actor, but it's common knowledge that large enough chunks of both can be and often are.

For example, the conspiracy theory that Russia rigged the 2016 election for Trump is based on this premise.

There is also a widely-accepted partisan divide between the encumbent news sources on the left, and Fox and newer so-called "fringe" or "alt" news sources on the right. These in fact aren't correctly fringe or alt - at least in the US - as clearly very close to or more than half of the US population for the past decade has indicated they have political beliefs aligned with them.

It's therefore as disingenuous to attempt to delegitimize "alt right" media by referring to it thusly, just as it may br for right-leaning media to do the same by referring to the left as "fake news". With this example, both sides are behaving in uniform ways exactly typical of unified, single-actor control, respective to each.

If the Russian conspiracy is true, the premise that single-actor control is possible is accepted, as it therefore happened with enough force to alter a major an election. If it isn't, then half of the US is legitimately right-leaning, making the labelling of their mainstream news sources as "fringe" or "alt" or "extreme" indeed tantamount to "fake news".

Either way, it's mistaken to believe it impossible for the control of single actor to be enacted upon a large enough portion of the media to achieve widespread adoption of their agenda.

In effect, your last paragraph directly contradicts your first.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#115

Post by TeMPOraL »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #89
forgingahead wrote: post #56

Gottlieb wanted to create a way to seize control of people's minds, and he realized it was a two-part process. First, you had to blast away the existing mind. Second, you had to find a way to insert a new mind into that resulting void. You don't need LSD for this, just expose yourself to media (news, social media, "influencers", etc) and they will helpfully convince you that everything you thought before you encounte…

That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions. What you're insinuating to be mind control are normal social mechanisms that have always been in place and have nothing to do with the media. They are primarily exerted upon you by your peers (close friends, family, colleagues), and not…

> That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions.

Not from the systems perspective, it doesn't. It requires a set point, an ability to measure deviation from that set point, and an ability to influence a factor that can reduce said deviation.

It's not a conspiracy theory to observe that news publishing is first and foremost a for-profit enterprise. That the primary, overriding goal of any private news agency is making money to survive and pay its owners. It's not a conspiracy theory to observe that news publishing is controlled to maximize that primary goal. It's also not a conspiracy theory to notice that people's behavior is influenced by the news - and here you have all the components you need for a feedback control loop.

If you notice that ad-based revenue model makes media profits proportional to "engagement", and that fear and hatred are some of the most strong emotions out there, you arrive at the reason why news publishing is trying to turn everyone into afraid, hateful bigots. It's how they make money. There's no conspiracy theory involved, just free market at work.

That there's no single actor with intentions and explicit goals - it only makes the phenomenon more robust.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#116

Post by simias »

forgingahead wrote: post #56

Gottlieb wanted to create a way to seize control of people's minds, and he realized it was a two-part process. First, you had to blast away the existing mind. Second, you had to find a way to insert a new mind into that resulting void. You don't need LSD for this, just expose yourself to media (news, social media, "influencers", etc) and they will helpfully convince you that everything you thought before you encounte…

I can't make sense of what you're saying. All voting/moderation systems are flawed one way or the other, but what's the alternative?

The only I can think of is complete anarchy and no moderation at all, and I know that some people think that it's the solution, but spending a few hours on 4chan or some other "free speech maximalist" forum should tell you that it doesn't usually generate very high quality discussion. Outrageous "loud" takes take over and more nuanced and developed arguments get buried.

I really don't believe "they" are feeding us anything. "They" is "us", all it takes is some self discipline if you're unhappy with your exchanges online. I never had a Twitter account, never browse the website, yet I live. Crazy, I know.

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#117

Post by freeflight »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #89
forgingahead wrote: post #56

Gottlieb wanted to create a way to seize control of people's minds, and he realized it was a two-part process. First, you had to blast away the existing mind. Second, you had to find a way to insert a new mind into that resulting void. You don't need LSD for this, just expose yourself to media (news, social media, "influencers", etc) and they will helpfully convince you that everything you thought before you encounte…

That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions. What you're insinuating to be mind control are normal social mechanisms that have always been in place and have nothing to do with the media. They are primarily exerted upon you by your peers (close friends, family, colleagues), and not…

> That's complete and utter conspiracy nonsense because control implicates intentions, but the media - and especially social media - are not directed by a uniform actor with intentions.

In most places the media landscape is a oligopoly [0], even social media doesn't evade that pitfall, only a handful of companies dominate that whole space.

And while on social media these companies are not always supplying the content, they are very much the gatekeepers about what kind of content is allowed in the first place and what content they aggregate to whom [1].

That is a very powerful position to be in and the results can be observed for years already with filter bubbles based on extremely warped Overton windows and an increasingly centralized world wide web [2]

Giving all kinds of media a blank pass, as not doing so would allegedly be fascism, just trivializes a very real problem.

[0] https://youtu.be/ZggCipbiHwE

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-29/the-germa...

[2] https://staltz.com/the-web-began-dying-in-2014-heres-how.htm...

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#119

Post by rv-de »

rorykoehler wrote: post #64
DoreenMichele wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online, platforms with downvote systems (HN included) present the apparent legitimacy of certain views over others, and help reinforce what you shouldn't be thinking or voicing (don't get greyed out by posting that!). Corrective upvotes are a tradition on HN. If you aren't being an asshole, some people will upvote you back to neutral if they think you are being downvoted for the wrong reasons. You just have to have a…

My own personal experience is that opinions on topics are geographical cargo cults. Upvoted by Europeans in the morning and downvoted by Americans in the afternoon or vice versa.

I think you should check the meaning of "cargo cult".

Re: The CIA's Quest for Mind Control: Torture, LSD and a 'Poisoner in Chief'

#120

Post by boomboomsubban »

person_of_color wrote: post #118

The funniest part of the last 4 years is Democrats defending the CIA.

The Republicans and Democrats have always supported the intelligence agencies, it's basically political suicide to strongly oppose them.
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