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Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

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Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#341

Post by hnick »

URSpider94 wrote: post #339
hnick wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade and economy are vital for a modern society though. If costs were instead born by the shipping companies they'd be put into the price of goods sold. I can't help but see this as a regressive use tax in many ways, since it'll likely apply to lower value items at a higher proportion which is what poorer people would be buying. The end user pays in either case, but doing it through taxation policy allows for a meas…

It’s a little bit regressive as you mention, but forcing the users to pay also encourages businesses to find ways to economize and thus minimize the impact of the tax on their customers. It’s also less regressive to pass along a small amount of tax in the cost of items (the portion of the cost of most things we buy made up by transportation costs is very small, and the tax is a small portion of that), than it is to b…

That actually sounds sensible so maybe you're right.

Here in Sydney we just opened a tolled tunnel, and to ease congestion up above on the older commuter road all trucks must use this tunnel. I don't know all the factors but it sounds like the best option for the people, they have a choice and trucks pay their way.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#342

Post by jashmatthews »

oblio wrote: post #336
leetcrew wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

horsepower is rarely the limiting factor for a sedan's towing capacity. a sedan's chassis is only designed to withstand accelerating and stopping its own weight (plus a margin for safety and internal cargo of a reasonable mass). you could probably get away with towing a jetski with a typical sedan, but anything much heavier than that risks bending the chassis. even if a car can tow something without deforming itself,…

I've seen SOOOO many sedans and station wagons pulling trailers here in Europe. The Dutch are especially fond of camping with their trailers and I rarely see any of them using SUVs or anything bigger. What you're saying is likely not true.

Absolutely. My ex used to drive on the autobahn using an A3 to tow almost 750kg of horse float and horse. The trailer has its own brakes. As long as you don’t drive car and trailer straight off a curb it’s not bending anything.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#343

Post by URSpider94 »

notatoad wrote: post #261
AlotOfReading wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how it works in your country, but in the US fuel taxes don't go to the general pot, they end up in a specific fund called the Highway Trust Fund that's specifically earmarked for transportation infrastructure and maintenance.

This is true, but the highway trust fund is not funded exclusively by fuel taxes, it's funded from the general fund https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-highway-t...

It’s worth noting that for over 50 years, the trust fund was fully self-sufficient with no general fund contributions. There’s been a shortfall in recent years because Congress is reluctant to increase the gas tax. As fleet fuel economy continues to increase, the tax revenue per mile driven continues to fall.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#344

Post by URSpider94 »

jholman wrote: post #232
AlotOfReading wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how it works in your country, but in the US fuel taxes don't go to the general pot, they end up in a specific fund called the Highway Trust Fund that's specifically earmarked for transportation infrastructure and maintenance.

Even if it does, the amount of money allocated from the general fund toward transportation maintenance is surely lower than it would be if those fuel taxes were not there. Unless an earmark pays 100% of the costs of something, the earmark is totally an illusion. Even if it does pay 100% of the costs, it is often mostly an illusion. In practice, most earmarks fall into the former category, and thus are entirely about…

It’s worth pointing out that fuel taxes were sufficient to keep the US highway trust fund self-sufficient for over 50 years. Recently, there’s been a shortfall that has required infusions of cash from the general fund.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#345

Post by Johnythree »

xd wrote: post #114
zemvpferreira wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you and I think you bring a useful point to the discussion, but I also think you'd be better-received if you completed your argument. Please tell us, what is a good estimate for the impact of producing and EV on the planet? And how does it compare to a gas vehicle? If that's too much work I'd be glad to learn more about battery production, since that's the point of difference.

Not an argument, just a point of view for which I'm open to any and all. edit: but the cost of rare earth mining is huge and if you don't want to do your own research... that's your call.

Never mind that Lithium is not a rare earth element, nor are cobalt, manganese, or any of the other key components of a lithium-ion battery.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#346

Post by askvictor »

lmilcin wrote: post #198
horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

I think you misunderstand what the road tax (or any other tax) is for. There are three main reasons for a tax to exist: 1. To bring revenue 2. To create incentive 3. Social justice (or illusion of it) Revenue from a specific tax is almost never used for a specific purpose. All revenue goes into a large bin from which the government takes to finance everything. Revenue from fuel/road tax is not used to finance buildin…

> Initially, EVs were exempted from taxes to create incentive to use them more. Now that it is pretty clear EVs took off and will be widespread no matter what, some countries start to remove those exemptions to ensure continuing revenue stream.

I suspect that EVs weren't exempted by design, but just slipped through the gap. Australian road tax is applied to petrol/gasoline/diesel. The number of EVs hasn't warranted changing this formula (the alternative being a tax on kms traveled). In Australia, EVs still haven't taken off (as there haven't been any incentives to buy them; in fact as they tend to be expensive, they often fall under the luxury car category and get taxed even more), so there are still very, very few on the road. It's very slowly changing, and this change is definitely looking into the next decade more that the next year, but still strikes me as odd timing - just when momentum is building to EVs, this will dull that momentum (at least without an incentive to _purchase_ an EV.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#347

Post by skrebbel »

anthonygd wrote: post #147
chrismorgan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny: as an Australian that has visited the USA a couple of times (and never been to Europe), I’d repeat half of your points but for America rather than Australia. Some Australians certainly have large vehicles without good cause, but that number is nowhere near as big as in America. (Notwithstanding this, my Dad and I have discussed the concept of a ban or extreme tax on owning big vehicles unless you can just…

I don't see why a large family would be an excuse. You need a large vehicle because you chose to need a large vehicle?

Most things I need, I need because I chose to need them.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#348

Post by chrismorgan »

chrismorgan wrote: post #139
davidivadavid wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, 13.1 l/100 km seems... insane. What's happening here?

It seems insane to me as well. My 2010 Mazda 3, used almost entirely on country driving with an average speed of 81km/h since I got it, sits at an average of 5.2L/100km. I recall figures from a couple of family members with similar or slightly larger cars on mostly Melbourne suburban driving, and they’re something like 8–9L/100km. My parents’ Nissan Elgrand (2007 I think?) hit something like 13–15L/100km before it go…

(It occurs to me now, hours later, that I completely forgot to mention that my Mazda 3 is a diesel.)

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#349

Post by chrismorgan »

megablast wrote: post #229
chrismorgan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember my dad telling me that when I was in my late teens. That it’s the fourth power startled me. To give an idea of what this means: For a 50 tonne semi-trailer with five axles, (⁵⁰⁄₅)⁴ = 10,000 units of damage. 2 tonne vehicle with two axles, 1 unit of damage. That one truck, only 25 times as heavy as a pretty heavy car, is doing 10,000 times as much damage to the road. Thus indeed if you have basically any he…

Except we need trucks. We don’t need private cars.

A very substantial portion of truck freight in countries like Australia and the USA is inter-city—almost all, for larger semi-trailers and B-doubles. But for inter-city freight, rail is much cheaper than road, once you account for all costs, rather than allowing society and passenger cars to subsidise the roads for trucks.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#350

Post by Symbiote »

Someone wrote: post #196
marta_morena_28 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confirmation bias to the fourth power. A person just told you that an average truck of which you see plenty on the roads, does a couple thousand times the damage of a car and your response is: "Let's get all the cars of the road because a bicycle does no damage at all compared to cars"

Who says all ? I’m just pointing out that there can be economic incentives for improving bicycle infrastructure. That isn’t an original idea. See for example https://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/ (2009) Also, if in Google “50 ton 5-axle truck” I get trucks that I rarely see on roads in Europe. Reading https://www.jpisla.es/resources/Download+JPIsla+20130106+Pes... , that’s because t most countries do…

The usual limit is Europe is 44 tonnes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_goods_vehicle

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

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