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Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

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Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#161

Post by austhrow743 »

adrianN wrote: post #71
zozbot234 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but some portion of road maintenance costs is independent from vehicle-caused wear-and-tear on the actual road surface. You would want this portion to be paid also by standard, non-commercial vehicles since these users are clearly receiving some value from the existence of a well-maintained road.

Everybody is receiving benefits from well maintained roads, just like everyone is receiving benefits from schools. Why special taxes for users unless you want to discourage use? Just pay for maintenance from the general budget.

Because you want to discourage use.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#162

Post by waiseristy »

blendo wrote: post #94
mtgx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trucks do...wait for it...1,400x more damage to roads than standard passenger vehicles do.

We could put the tax on each tire. $1 per tire for a Miata, $100 per tire for an 18-wheeler. Just look at the tire load rating. Also, tax based on tire speed rating, to capture the 0.5 m v^2 energy.

This is the solution I ended up settling on. I can't think of any other use-indexed item for a vehicle that you can tax. It fixes the ridiculous registration pricing for people who rarely use their vehicles. Fixes the odd taxing of high capacity trailers. Fixes the indexing on damage caused to the roads as you mentioned. The only real downside I can see is it puts pressure on drivers to not replace old unsafe tires

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#163

Post by dschuler »

anthonygd wrote: post #147
chrismorgan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny: as an Australian that has visited the USA a couple of times (and never been to Europe), I’d repeat half of your points but for America rather than Australia. Some Australians certainly have large vehicles without good cause, but that number is nowhere near as big as in America. (Notwithstanding this, my Dad and I have discussed the concept of a ban or extreme tax on owning big vehicles unless you can just…

I don't see why a large family would be an excuse. You need a large vehicle because you chose to need a large vehicle?

In France, you end up paying a lower tax on your vehicle the more children you have, so a family with four children might pay the same taxes on a large diesel as a childless couple with a tiny gas car. I was trying to register my 3-cylinder 1.0 liter vehicle, just to find out I’d have to pay 1500 Euro tax for my gas guzzler. Ugh.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#164

Post by pmontra »

davidivadavid wrote: post #28
horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

As a European, 13.1 l/100 km seems... insane. What's happening here?

The last time I was in Australia I rented a Toyota Landcruiser and went from Cairns to Cape York and back. Probably all the cars on that road did 13 l / 100 km or worse. Then I rented a small Kia from Sydney to Bathurst. Maybe I refueled only before returning the car in Sydney.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#165

Post by mulmen »

javagram wrote: post #160
anthonygd wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why a large family would be an excuse. You need a large vehicle because you chose to need a large vehicle?

A large family creates many future taxpayers. The state has an interest in subsidizing or at least not discouraging the creation of large families

That seems like an oversimplification. Rural states receive more in benefits than they pay in federal tax. Large families by necessity are going to favor rural areas and states. It is not clear to me how a large family is a net tax benefit, there are too many other factors to consider.

Having more people pay tax does not mean there is a net increase in tax collected.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#166

Post by [deleted] »

riversflow wrote: post #128
ip26 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the simplest arguments against it to me is basically to look at the landscape. For example, in the US, ballpark 1% of cars are electric. Meanwhile, the flat federal fuel tax is not indexed to inflation & hasn't been increased in almost thirty years. Yet everyone is in this panic about how EVs are going to cause a huge revenue shortfall!? I'm not opposed to EVs paying their share, but something is rotten in Den…

2 things. First, pretty sure it’s been discussed here previously(edit: and is down thread), but I believe the wear on the road is like the 4th power of the weight.[1] here’s a chart describing it. with that considered, I don’t think it makes sense to even really charge passenger vehicles in the US, when we have huge fleets of 80k pound big rigs on the road(and the limit is uncapped with overweight permits)—charge the…

[deleted]

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#167

Post by Baeocystin »

dmurray wrote: post #62
alkonaut wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has to be including heavy vehicles? Australians still by V8’s but not that many of them can be...

It is including heavy vehicles, but also motorcycles. The average for "passenger vehicles" is still about 10.5 l/km. Just bigger cars I think. https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/avera...

Motorcycles, perhaps surprisingly, aren't all that much more efficient than regular gas cars. The tl;dr is that their aerodynamics are terrible, and their engines not tuned for fuel efficiency.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#169

Post by canofbars »

bigbubba wrote: post #48
singhrac wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every car has an odometer... one could think of a relatively convenient scheme where you can get your car inspected once a year at any refueling station, and tampering with the odometer is a crime. Won't stop everyone, but does it matter?

How do you distribute the money to places where people drive but don't live? Gas tax handles this to an extent, but milage tax wouldn't; not without border checkpoints or mass surveillance.

The government has stats on how busy easy road is. Just pool all of the money and distribute it based on those stats.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#170

Post by Someone »

chrismorgan wrote: post #133
adrianN wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia says damage is proportional to axle weight to the 4th power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_weight#cite_ref-13

I remember my dad telling me that when I was in my late teens. That it’s the fourth power startled me. To give an idea of what this means: For a 50 tonne semi-trailer with five axles, (⁵⁰⁄₅)⁴ = 10,000 units of damage. 2 tonne vehicle with two axles, 1 unit of damage. That one truck, only 25 times as heavy as a pretty heavy car, is doing 10,000 times as much damage to the road. Thus indeed if you have basically any he…

100 kg bicycle (including rider), 0.00000625 units of damage.

So, getting people out of their cars onto bicycles cuts road maintenance cost.

Because of that, building bike lanes/paths can be cheaper than not building them.

(And 50 tonne trucks are very rare on most city roads, I hope)

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