Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#111

Post by bigbubba » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #52

adrianN wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas and diesel cars don't pay for the damage they cause to the climate, or for the local air pollution. How is that fair?

That is the real problem. We need to properly price in the negative externality. However, that would mean that driving (and even more so flying) becomes almost prohibitively expensive for many. We already saw with the yellow jackets in France that this would lead to unrest.

> That is the real problem

A real problem. Both are real problems. The importance of road maintenance isn't diminished by the importance of environmental considerations. Roads are vital to the economy. Governments need to multitask; they need to handle many important matters at once , not focus on one issue at a time while letting others fall to the wayside.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#112

Post by Tiktaalik » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

Same issue is looming for many jurisdictions that have funded roads and public transit with gas taxes. As gas taxes decline, there becomes a hole in the budget.

Yes EVs are better than ICE vehicles on CO2 emissions, so of course we should pivot to that, but beyond that cars are still harmful and need to go away as much as they can. EVs create toxic road dust (brake pads + tire wear), congest the roads and kill pedestrians just like regular ICE cars.

Better for the taxpayer, the pedestrian, and the environment would be to fund roads and public transit through other, more stable means that don't rely on stable/increasing car ownership (eg. income taxes, wealth taxes), and then save money by limiting road expansion and taking cars off the road as we improve active and public transport.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#113

Post by Tepix » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #112

Same issue is looming for many jurisdictions that have funded roads and public transit with gas taxes. As gas taxes decline, there becomes a hole in the budget. Yes EVs are better than ICE vehicles on CO2 emissions, so of course we should pivot to that, but beyond that cars are still harmful and need to go away as much as they can. EVs create toxic road dust (brake pads + tire wear), congest the roads and kill pedest…

EVs create less toxic road dust from braking.

As long as there's so few EVs on the road, it makes no sense to tax them. You want more EVs, right?

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#114

Post by xd » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

zemvpferreira wrote: post #110

xd wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said anything that implied gas wasn't an issue .. simply stating a truth bomb about EV's environmental and human costs; lithium mining being the biggest one.

I didn't downvote you and I think you bring a useful point to the discussion, but I also think you'd be better-received if you completed your argument. Please tell us, what is a good estimate for the impact of producing and EV on the planet? And how does it compare to a gas vehicle? If that's too much work I'd be glad to learn more about battery production, since that's the point of difference.

Not an argument, just a point of view for which I'm open to any and all.

edit: but the cost of rare earth mining is huge and if you don't want to do your own research... that's your call.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#115

Post by ip26 » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

One of the simplest arguments against it to me is basically to look at the landscape. For example, in the US, ballpark 1% of cars are electric. Meanwhile, the flat federal fuel tax is not indexed to inflation & hasn't been increased in almost thirty years. Yet everyone is in this panic about how EVs are going to cause a huge revenue shortfall!? I'm not opposed to EVs paying their share, but something is rotten in Denmark.

Anyway, shifting fuel taxes onto tires might make sense. All cars use tires, no matter the fuel, it requires no odometer reading, and a tire has a designed application & load range which ought to translate reasonably well to anticipated road wear.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#116

Post by quicklime » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #112

Same issue is looming for many jurisdictions that have funded roads and public transit with gas taxes. As gas taxes decline, there becomes a hole in the budget. Yes EVs are better than ICE vehicles on CO2 emissions, so of course we should pivot to that, but beyond that cars are still harmful and need to go away as much as they can. EVs create toxic road dust (brake pads + tire wear), congest the roads and kill pedest…

I agree that EVs cause problems and should be taxed too. In addition to the issues you mention, I also worry that subsidies for luxury car brands like Tesla are funded by redistributing wealth from the poor to the rich.

But the problem with funding roads from income/wealth taxes is that it moves it further away from being a user-pays system, which creates the wrong incentives. One way to avoid this would be a variable tax that shifts continuously with the mix of vehicles on the road.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#117

Post by guerby » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

Lammy wrote: post #59

jdhn wrote: post #9

I don't understand the opposition to this. These vehicles continue to use roads but don't pay any taxes that would help maintain roads if they were gas or diesel cars. How is that fair?

Probably a lot of Tesla owners on here upset at the thought of losing any of the privilege it brings. Full EVs do more damage to the road than ICE vehicles since they’re a lot heavier. I’m totally pro-EV, but we should definitely pay some part of the tax necessary to maintain the roads we drive on. Some quick searches show: Mazda MX-5 Miata MY2020 base curb weight: 2403lbs Toyota Prius MY2020 base curb weight: 3010lb…

Model 3 SR+ is 3627 lbs

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#118

Post by guerby » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

Tax on using roads make sense as road maintenance costs money that has to come from somewhere.

But climate change is also a question of timing and transition, EV will be taxed at some point what about timing and message:

- do we want to replace fossil fuel for transportation? - if so how fast do we want to do it?

Taxing EV right now might not be the best idea...

EV is also less imports, less pollution (including less noise) so it will have some net positive budgetary effect.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#119

Post by mikeklaas » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #115

horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

One of the simplest arguments against it to me is basically to look at the landscape. For example, in the US, ballpark 1% of cars are electric. Meanwhile, the flat federal fuel tax is not indexed to inflation & hasn't been increased in almost thirty years. Yet everyone is in this panic about how EVs are going to cause a huge revenue shortfall!? I'm not opposed to EVs paying their share, but something is rotten in Den…

Good thought, but that might incentivize not replacing worn tires

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#120

Post by dawnerd » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

Oregon decided last year? Year before? That their registration fees were going to be based on efficiency of the vehicle, so the gas burning cars end up paying less to register. I get trying to have EVs pay their fair share, but having to pay more than double what a massively polluting much heavier truck has to pay is kind of a slap in the face. I'd much rather pay per kwh.