I Miss Working from the Office • Hacker News Board

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#371

Post by KronisLV » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

volume wrote: post #337

Xevi wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet it feels very common to see employers buy subpar equipment, because they either don't understand how much of a difference it makes, or it "costs too much" to give every developer higher quality tools. I'm also in the camp of preferring to work from home with my triple high-res monitor setup, good chair, height adjustable table, ergonomic keyboard/mouse, and so on. I dread the day I'll have to go back to the offic…

> I dread the day I'll have to go back to the office. Unless you have a real vote in the decision, then the the best move, is to accept either result. Otherwise you saddle yourself with the mental and emotional baggage and clutter. I suppose this is easier said than done, but worth the effort in converting the dread to acceptance. This is just some random opinion on the internet of course.

Or perhaps simply change your place of employment for a place that has both remote work as the preferred way of getting things done (if that's what you prefer) and has actually established the culture around working remotely efficiently (like embracing asynchronous communications, for example).

While figuring out the latter would take some first-hand experience of reading the accounts of others, the former is easier to filter companies by, for example:

- https://github.com/yanirs/established-remote

- https://weworkremotely.com/top-remote-companies

- https://remotemasters.dev/fully-remote-companies

- https://remotemasters.dev/remote-first-companies

Of course, those are just the links that a quick Google search turned over, some job ad sites also have filters for remote/on-site positions etc.

There is no reason to settle for something you deem to be sub par, unless you feel more comfortable that way (since people have valid complaints about the hiring practices in ICT nowadays), which is also okay.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#372

Post by Jaruzel » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #230

ricardo81 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment of your creative approach. I think a good middle ground is having offices in neighbourhoods, within walking/cycling distance where people from different companies come to work. They get the benefit of social interaction, "getting out of the house", and avoid a car journey. Living in the UK, I think that would also help restore the feeling of community, as a gathering point for people within…

Offices are in office districts in places like London for a reason: many people will join the job not living near the office, those people will be all over town, and of course the housing prices nearby might not be to their liking (or the neighborhood amenities, for that matter). An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town, or even in the next town over, because all the…

> An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town

You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. I REALLY don't miss that. Most days an advertised 30 minute train journey would take 50 minutes and unless you got on the train at it's starting point, that's 50 minutes of standing with your face in someones armpit.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#373

Post by bradlys » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #194

benbristow wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in silence Nice if you have a detached house in a quiet neighbourhood. Try an apartment in a busy area, you'll be wearing noise cancelling headphones too!

I'm in an apartment near a busy street and it's pretty quiet when the windows are closed.

Single pane life over here. It’s never quiet. And I don’t live on a busy street. I live in a relatively quiet suburb in the bay. However, there is a war being raged by crows and squirrels right now. It’s quite obnoxious. Cheap landlords...

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#374

Post by redisman » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

st1x7 wrote: post #48

I think that what isn't discussed enough is the variance in quality of your office environment and of your home office and how that quality affects your preferences about working from home. It sounds quite obvious but in these arguments people often just state what they personally like and leave it at that. Your office can be place where you still have the option to work uninterrupted but also get the benefits of fac…

Working from home has been great for me but I still miss going to the office sometimes to get a little change in my day and get lunch with coworkers. And I definitely miss the workday being over when I walk out of there. I’ve been better about that lately but it was such a clear separation to walk and take transport back versus now I’ll move a few feet.

We were already half remote where we go in a couple of days a week and I liked that mix

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#375

Post by jokethrowaway » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

I agree with almost everything but one: I think people get much more work done at home than in the office. Having worked a mixture of office / remote in the past 15 years and having witnessed multiple teams going remote pre covid and another team going remote during covid, I think the office is a productivity killer.

Managers think people are working because are in the office, people think they're working because they're in the office. But tasks proceed at abysmal pace between impromptu meetings and coffee breaks.

Being alone at home and being judged just for the work you're completing, actually force people to do something, which is why they end up working more at home: having something to show for the next meeting takes time.

There are tons of cons to remote working for the workers: - Likely worse workspace - Costs are shifted to the workers - Lack of social life - Lower loyalty to employers and teammates who are just a window on your laptop - Managers will have less of a relationship with you, making you more expendable and more easily replaced with someone in a cheaper country

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#376

Post by jokethrowaway » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #206

user5994461 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it. Even when I was working in countryside Europe a decade ago we had better equipment than that and often double display (17" or 19" at the time). Some of the companies even had personal offices or small offices for 1-3 people. I don't doubt that there are some shitty companies out there that can't get an office chair and a display from this decade, but it's far from the norm.

Maybe things have gotten better but I worked at a couple of large engineering companies in London 5-10 years ago and cramped, shitty, open plan offices with cheap ancient hardware was very much the norm at every place I worked at and visited. Coming from offices in Norway and Sweden I was shocked at how terrible their working conditions where.

I had a somewhat different experience working in London (multiple clients) for the last 7 years. I guess it depends on the employer, but generally hardware / furniture is not that expensive compared to salaries and rent of the building in London, so things are decent quality.

Open office are an unfortunate reality, space is expensive.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#377

Post by seangrogg » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

st1x7 wrote: post #48

I think that what isn't discussed enough is the variance in quality of your office environment and of your home office and how that quality affects your preferences about working from home. It sounds quite obvious but in these arguments people often just state what they personally like and leave it at that. Your office can be place where you still have the option to work uninterrupted but also get the benefits of fac…

I can agree with this.

Previously (at Google, Sunnyvale) I was paying $1,700 for my share of a 2x2 apartment with a one-way commute of 20 minutes during odd hours to over an hour during peak hours. This gave me a desk in an open floor plan with nominally disruptive neighbors while still fielding messages on chat and meetings I would have to walk to that could be in other buildings (or, albeit rarely, campuses). Free food and drink, a gym I was too weary to use, a pool that was often too cold to use, and the view of construction that was going up faster than my code thanks to constant changes from different levels of management.

Now, at a remote company, I'm paying $1,700 for a 2x2 to myself, a dedicated room for work, dedicated setup, no commute, the only distraction is occasionally my upstairs neighbor, a heated pool, a gym I'm able to use after one of my very few meetings, and non-free food but a full kitchen to work with during work hours.

I do miss my coworkers and some of the fun face-to-face interactions, don't get me wrong, but not enough to give up the relative paradise I've gotten in exchange. While it can get lonely at times I do also get to spend many (many, many) hours online with friends playing games; if not for covid I'd be going out or having friends over often as well.

All this to say that despite all this, I still respect that others don't share a similar set of options and/or circumstances. Those who have geographic ties, others living with them, space constraints, amenities that are hard to replicate, or just straight miss their peers, and many other variables I haven't considered. My personal paradise may be their hell and I respect that, and hopefully they can return to their normal while I can also keep what I have.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#378

Post by intricatedetail » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

Tomis02 wrote: post #142

intricatedetail wrote: post #45

Work in office was a thing because we didn't have great tools to communicate. Now that changed and I think office work is an unnecessary luxury. If people need face to face meeting, then maybe it is a sign they need to work on their communication skills? I find text communication more meaningful and productive that f2f where things easily get lost. If you need to escape family life, consider working from a cafe or re…

No, work in office was a thing because it's always been like that and change is difficult. It's not like remote work is a new idea, it's just that the idea of not visually seeing asses in seats was perceived as very radical.

My argument is that we didn't have Zoom or Slack 50 years ago, so gathering people in one place was a necessity. Now it's not and it indeed may feel radical, but the same could be told about people who used to walk everywhere and then faced the transportation revolution.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#379

Post by fennecfoxen » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

Jaruzel wrote: post #372

fennecfoxen wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offices are in office districts in places like London for a reason: many people will join the job not living near the office, those people will be all over town, and of course the housing prices nearby might not be to their liking (or the neighborhood amenities, for that matter). An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town, or even in the next town over, because all the…

> An office district allows people to get to the office expediently from homes all over town You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then. I REALLY don't miss that. Most days an advertised 30 minute train journey would take 50 minutes and unless you got on the train at it's starting point, that's 50 minutes of standing with your face in someones armpit.

> You've clearly not commuted in and out of London at rush-hour/peak-time then.

Not only have I done that, I've put up with the Southern strikes. Still far better to go into the center of town than to go to some random spot on a different edge of town.

Re: I Miss Working from the Office

#380

Post by metafunctor » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #331

metafunctor wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you don't miss the office, but you miss the social aspect. A good office would allow you to work in peace when you need to. For a programmer, this would be maybe 50-80% of the time. This is where the monitors and keyboards and chairs are. Personal tools and personal space. But, there should be enough opportunity to socialize when you feel like it; ranging from sofas and coffee machines and team lunches to…

I think this hard separation between work areas and social areas in an office would eliminate a lot of the social advantages of the office. Who wants to be seen as the one always in the social area not working while on the clock? Plus, who would consciously choose to get their socialization from work instead of their personal friends? I think office socialization has to be coincidental or it just won't happen at all.…

I am not a proponent for hard separation either; I would prefer to have a sofa and a coffee machine and white board in my room and have colleagues stroll in when the door is open. It would not always be open, though.

That "appearing as not working while on the clock" is, to me, a foreign fear, and not something I've ever really experienced at the places I've worked in. I know that I (and the teams I've been part of) have been plenty productive without pressure to put in the hours. I think that a culture of putting in the hours would have been counterproductive, in fact. My work has not been flipping burgers, but designing and creating complex systems. It doesn't work out that well under time pressure.