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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#41

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of t…

It's called 'moral hazard', and avoiding it is paramount to a functioning capitalist society.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#42

Student loans should be discharable in bankruptcy court. It's insane that they aren't already. Simple solution, anyone in financial trouble gets relief, and people who can pay their debt off should do so. (edit: phrasing)

Hold my beer while I go get in financial trouble.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a magic button you can press to costlessly improve some people's lives. It's pure wealth redistribution with recipients disproportionately in the upper middle class.

Do you have a citation to back this up? I admit my knowledge is anecdotal, but I know somebody in their 20s, who went to college, and is in debt that would be cancelled. This person was the first in their family to go to college, and was unable to find a job in their field. Most of this persons peers are in a similar situation with respect to debt and being unable to find jobs in their field. The jobs these people ha…

This analysis breaks out share of debt by family income and student earning quintiles: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/06/28/who-owes-...

Their sources are also linked from that post.

Going by student earnings, the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt. Going by family incomes has about the same distribution. None of the lower three quintiles are breaking ~15% of borrowing.

This is absolutely a gift to the wealthy.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#44

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

[deleted]

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#45
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm strong pro-UBI, strongly against student-loan forgiveness. It's one thing to acknowledge automation is going to decrease the job pool. It's another to retroactively break financial contracts for a generation that's already not responsible enough with money, giving a huge amount to a small-interest group and ignore those who need it most (i.e. those who didn't go to college).; It also strongly incentivizes college…

Even though student payments went largely to administrators? That this didn't used to be the case? That students (of every economic class) paid rich white dudes to sit in offices and pretend to run a college? How is forgiving this loan anything but relief to young people who were essentially stuck either being that low-income group you are so fond of, or paying through the nose?

College used to be so cheap, you could pay your way through it working nights as you attended classes during the day. I have family who did this. In that world, there's no such thing as student loan forgiveness, because it's not a crippling debt.

The root of the problem is that college got 3x as expensive (after accounting for inflation), and not better at educating. Fundamentally, this is an economics problem. And the lesson here is that people need to stop trying to gamble >$100,000 on class indicators.

It's tremendously damaging to the economy if we deny reality and say "Let's keep encouraging 18 year olds to study British Literature for 4-8 years," versus "That's dead, it's all technical now. Sorry, but here are your realistic choices..."

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#46

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

> When you pay someone's debts, you assume some participation into the choices they've made

So let's consider the choice to go to college.

When I was growing up, I was told over and over again that if I got an Associates Degree that I would be practically guaranteed to higher wages. I was told that if I got a Bachelor's Degree, I would see higher wages still, and even higher for a Master's, PHD, etc.

Everyone I know has been taught this from an early age. We were taught that if we work hard and better ourselves that we will see a real monetary result. We were taught that that is the American dream. Millions of people believed that message.

That message ended up being a lie. Millions of Americans are now living in debt and can't declare bankruptcy on their student loans.

Don't these people deserve a solution? What was their fault? Working hard to better themselves and society?

> Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions. If your level of logic is "what could be so wrong about helping people get out of hardship", then maybe you shouldn't be in the business of administering / making economic policy...

What are your "good intentions"? Preserving the very unrelenting system of debt that got us here?

If your level of logic is "what might be immoral about helping people get out of hardship", then you are clearly not motivated to help people get out of hardship. Your motivation is instead to apply a strict moral rule over those who are in need.

> Are we only going to do this for current students? Are we going to do this for every student to come? What happens when a person knows that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven?

That's a good question. How long is it going to take to remove this structure of promised benefit leading to inescapable debt? That is how long we ought to remove that burden. That also gives us a clear motivation to overhaul our clearly broken higher education system.

Is your fear that "a person will know that whatever debt they take out will be forgiven", or is it "a debtor will know whatever debt they impose will be forgiven"? We need only replace the word "forgiven" with "recovered", and we see that this is already the system we have in place. People get into student loan debt honestly believing that higher education will lead them to the higher wages needed to pay that debt back. Universities are guaranteed to be paid by students, whether via recoverable debt or not, because bankruptcy is not on the table.

> Think to the unintended consequences of what you thought were just good intentions.

Exactly. If your good intention is to prevent the taxpayer from taking the burden of a broken system, your unintended consequence is millions of people living with unrecoverable debt, and the perpetuation of that same broken system.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of t…

I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge ca…

Best comment yet. Take my upvote.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#48
Cancelling student debt is an example of a moral hazard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard It sets a bad precedent and merely encourages other people to borrow money in the future, but does not solve the underlying issue of college costs. It also subsidizes unemployable degrees.

Promises to wholesale cancel student debt is populism. More specifically, it is left-wing economic populism that panders to the young upper-middle class for their votes. (Interestingly, Federalist Papers Number 10 predicts populist demands to cancel debts 200 years ago.) It's worth noting that Biden's plan, which cancels debt for people below a certain income, is somewhat more reasonable.

However, I do think that college expenses are a real issue. Education is important in society, and college is also a way for lower-class people to move up the economic ladder. Precisely because people can borrow money, colleges are free to charge exorbitant prices. Colleges then expand with amenities and market a lifestyle rather than a place to learn. They also expand with administrative bloat. I think colleges should be held accountable for their rising prices and where the money is going.

P.S. Jonah Goldberg has more writings here: https://thedispatch.com/people/4350832

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#49

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

> Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically).

An old, old complaint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_...

‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#50

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of t…

Shelter is even more important and fundamental than education. Will the government be taking care of mortgages next?
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