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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#31

Post by bluGill »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #28
underseacables wrote: post #21

Any debt forgiveness in the first world is essentially a transfer of wealth, and it forgives everyone who very well could have paid, but hung out to get it forgiven. I took out a loan and it took me years to pay it off, why can’t others do the same.

In my opinion, a more equitable solution is to simply give everyone who took out a student loan a fixed amount of several tens of thousands of dollars. If you paid off your loans already, great, your reward is free money.

What about those who worked hard and took a few more years to not take out a loan in the first place?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#32

Post by zaphod4prez »

underseacables wrote: post #24
drewg123 wrote: post #3

Opinions like this are why we can't have nice things in the USA. People look at some subgroup getting a benefit and are encouraged to think "Why should they get this thing when I get nothing? These people don't deserve it" and so they block the new benefit, and we fall farther and farther behind countries like the Nordics, where this is somehow not a problem.

Because collection and redistribution of wealth and assets has never worked anywhere in the world, ever. Any plan to dress it up as “debt forgiveness” is easily shredded for its narrow view that it’s a one and done, when this could be like tolls: Once in place they never go away.

You're making a realllyyy strong claim here, and also an unclear one. Redistribution hasn't worked... worked to achieve what end goal? I would be interested to hear what you think wealth redistribution has failed to do, and also to hear one or even two examples of societies that do not redistribute wealth in any meaningful way (I have trouble imagining how that could ever be the case, to be honest).

I think that redistributing wealth is essential to having a functional society (where I define functioning as being moderately stable and in some meaningful way reducing the suffering of those who live within it).

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#33

Post by indymike »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #28
underseacables wrote: post #21

Any debt forgiveness in the first world is essentially a transfer of wealth, and it forgives everyone who very well could have paid, but hung out to get it forgiven. I took out a loan and it took me years to pay it off, why can’t others do the same.

In my opinion, a more equitable solution is to simply give everyone who took out a student loan a fixed amount of several tens of thousands of dollars. If you paid off your loans already, great, your reward is free money.

The more equitable solution would be to give out money even if you never had a loan. Why should I have to pay for your student loan. I never had a loan to begin with.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#34

Post by JoeAltmaier »

zug_zug wrote: post #14
drewg123 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think that we need to stop thinking about "subsidize some group". The more effort we spend making sure that somebody doesn't get something they don't deserve, the worse off we are. Let's just have a UBI rather than lots of bureaucracy keeping score.

I'm strong pro-UBI, strongly against student-loan forgiveness. It's one thing to acknowledge automation is going to decrease the job pool. It's another to retroactively break financial contracts for a generation that's already not responsible enough with money, giving a huge amount to a small-interest group and ignore those who need it most (i.e. those who didn't go to college).; It also strongly incentivizes college…

Even though student payments went largely to administrators? That this didn't used to be the case? That students (of every economic class) paid rich white dudes to sit in offices and pretend to run a college?

How is forgiving this loan anything but relief to young people who were essentially stuck either being that low-income group you are so fond of, or paying through the nose?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#35

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

drewg123 wrote: post #3

Opinions like this are why we can't have nice things in the USA. People look at some subgroup getting a benefit and are encouraged to think "Why should they get this thing when I get nothing? These people don't deserve it" and so they block the new benefit, and we fall farther and farther behind countries like the Nordics, where this is somehow not a problem.

The government’s money all comes from taxes. If the government pays out money to people that aren’t you, it’s as if you had paid them directly and skipped paying taxes. If you wouldn’t want to give someone free money then you similarly shouldn’t want your government to give them that money.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#36

Post by indymike »

underseacables wrote: post #23
treeman79 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change bankruptcy law so student debt is discharge. Don’t let government back loans. Lenders will only lend to people have a decent chance of paying it back. So no more nonsense degrees unless your rich. Colleges have grown fat on easy money. This will slim them up again

I think everyone who has taken a loan out should pay SOMETHING - a settlement sum perhaps, based on their last year tax return. IE. The government will forgive 80% of your loan, but you must pay the remaining 20% on an affordable, no interest payment plan. Failure to pay that your only option is to declare bankruptcy and have it discharged. I have a real problem with anyone getting off totally free.

This is how bankruptcy works.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#37

Post by zozbot234 »

535188B17C93743 wrote: post #2

I've got mixed opinions on this one––I feel like we often wrongly conflate "the elite" and "those with a college degree". The real losers if we cancel student loan debt is probably decamillionaires+ due to taxes. That said, I'm not in favor of immediate student loan cancellation. I think we need a sustainable solution to prevent a rebuild-up of student loans first, and I think we also need to aim to implement the sam…

It's a hard problem. People who incur a lot of student debt are basically a random mixture of "students at actual elite colleges", "non-traditional students at for-profit colleges of wildly variable quality" and "people who incurred debt to get their MBA or other professional degrees". It makes no sense to treat all of these people equally wrt. debt forgiveness, and no they aren't just "the elite" either.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#38

Post by JoeAltmaier »

breitling wrote: post #26
eesmith wrote: post #18

Free public libraries? Paid for by tax dollars? That's making the working class subsidize the elite. Free public roads? Paid for by tax dollars? That's making the working class subsidize the elite. Etc.

This is not analogous at all. Everyone uses roads. Everyone has access to public libraries.

And one third of American young people have/are getting a degree. That isn't enough to make it analogous?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#39

Post by TechBro8615 »

The real elites, the ones going to top 20 schools, don't even have student loans because the endowments pay for financial aid grants. Those financial aid programs are amazing, but I always did find it a bit unfair that the kids at the best schools are the same people getting the highest paying jobs that would be able to pay off loans if they had them.

There's nothing wrong with that system, it's great for the people it benefits, but just a bit sad is all.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#40

Post by vorpalhex »

drewg123 wrote: post #17
orangecat wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a magic button you can press to costlessly improve some people's lives. It's pure wealth redistribution with recipients disproportionately in the upper middle class.

Do you have a citation to back this up? I admit my knowledge is anecdotal, but I know somebody in their 20s, who went to college, and is in debt that would be cancelled. This person was the first in their family to go to college, and was unable to find a job in their field. Most of this persons peers are in a similar situation with respect to debt and being unable to find jobs in their field. The jobs these people ha…

Anecdotally, all of my friends who went to college are clearing 90k a year with many over 200k once you include stock options. One friend is a published expert in their field. Out of all my friends who attended college only one didn't get into a profitable field but their degree was in civil planning and their parents are going to buy them a vineyard to run.

But again, just anecdotal.

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