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Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

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Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#171

Post by mjgs »

grenoire wrote: post #4

Regarding advertising, the article states: "Rather than being seen as a tool to enable people Japanese companies often see the web as just another advertising platform to push their message across as loudly as possible. Websites ends up being about the maximal concentration of information into the smallest space akin to a pamphlet rather than an interactive tool." I find this quite ironic, especially given how unusab…

Does anyone know if all the GDPR type laws in EU and US are causing Japanese website makers to add consent forms on their websites?

That’s probably the worst usability problem with the current web, it used to be popups, now it’s constant in your face consent forms. Consent forms are really just legally enforced popups.

Probably US users don’t know how bad it is because the US sites only add them to requests originating in the EU.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#172

Post by eloisius »

tgv wrote: post #162
eloisius wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the aversion to information density that designers have. In my experience, old school server-rendered sites tended to be jam packed with more information and richer tooling than most of the SPA-type sites you interact with these days. They might be “ugly” from some bauhaus art school designer’s standard but I’d way rather use an old school but feature rich interface like eBay than the sleek-looking…

I think (but I'm also someone who likes more densely packed interfaces) that it boils down to "discoverability" and friends: a sparse interface with a few well chosen controls can be easier to explore and navigate, precisely because there is less information. So on the one hand it eases the task of the user (cognitive load, if you want), and on the other it forces the builder to prioritize. If that leads to difficult…

I see what you mean. I always get this feeling that all the changes are better for people in general, but power users get screwed in the move. I used to love how difficult power powerful UIs were. Back in the 90s and 00s, tools like photoshop and Office used to be complex, but felt so crisp that once your learned them, it was like playing a piano. Muscle memory and keyboard shortcuts made things feel so fast. Now it feels like everything tried to “learn” my preference or suggest shit to me.

Dialing numbers and texting on my old flip phone used to be easy. Now, using google voice on my iPhone to dial a number is horrendous because it’s trying to “suggest” someone for me to call with every digit that I dial.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#173

Post by brigandish »

bluepizza wrote: post #153
brigandish wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing inherent to our culture The article states some reasons under Cultural Differences that are inherent (though not unique as the Update 1 note shows) to Japanese culture that would explain the proliferation of bad web design. Maybe they're wrong but they at least seem reasonable . Are we going to argue that Japanese culture generally is going to have no effect on work style and commerce on the web, w…

> we're also to believe it's just chance that led to 2 out of 71 (I checked) of the websites I looked at being adequate? We all know it’s ugly. Nobody looks at those designs with approval and admiration. > I'm not sure about the old fashioned Japanese nationalism, but have you considered the possibility that they've experienced a modern type of Japanese nationalism and it's going to be incorporated into their assessm…

> We all know it’s ugly. Nobody looks at those designs with approval and admiration.

Well, at least that's an insight. I wasn't sure that anyone Japanese does think it's ugly because, as the article points out at the very beginning, it's in contrast to other parts of the culture that are deemed part of the design world.

Other than that though, I'm not sure what your point is?

> They keep repeating their Japanese people propaganda, but you don’t have to believe it

Strangely enough, I have no inclination to believe it. I'm more worried about the insidious racism and xenophobia that it breeds in those who do believe it, which seems to find enough expression in the general population that there's an endless stream of anecdotes shared among foreigners here.

> my foster family felt very strongly about America being the best in everything, and they made sure I heard it all, but in the end, I never really believed what they said. It sounded too similar to what my family said back home.

Okay, it's just bad luck and foreigners are being mean by bringing up fax machines. Convenient how that argument insulates the culture from criticism and implies that nothing should change, which is a view that over-patriotic people would probably agree with.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#174

Post by T-zex »

wortelefant wrote: post #170

A while ago I saw a post about text-heavy websites in Japan, explaining it as a result of higher literacy rates and the expectation to see all relevant information at once, sadly I can't find it anymore. If you happen to stumble over it, much oblidged.

Not a Japanese, but this is exactly what I would like to get from the websites instead of huge pictures/videos and endless scrolling to get basic info.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#175

Post by forgotmypw17 »

criddell wrote: post #87
SamBam wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any technology has improved on the decades-old three-dial system for air control in a car.

You're not fan of thermostat controlled systems where you set a temperature you want and that's what it maintains? We have a Subaru with manual settings (3 dials) and a Volvo with a thermostat. The Volvo was set the day we bought it and I don't know that we've messed with it since. The Subaru, on the other hand, is always being adjusted. The Volvo one seems to be smart enough to know when hot or cold (dry) air is nee…

I've experience with many of the thermostatat systems, and none of them seem to know what I want.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#176

Post by tgv »

eloisius wrote: post #172
tgv wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (but I'm also someone who likes more densely packed interfaces) that it boils down to "discoverability" and friends: a sparse interface with a few well chosen controls can be easier to explore and navigate, precisely because there is less information. So on the one hand it eases the task of the user (cognitive load, if you want), and on the other it forces the builder to prioritize. If that leads to difficult…

I see what you mean. I always get this feeling that all the changes are better for people in general, but power users get screwed in the move. I used to love how difficult power powerful UIs were. Back in the 90s and 00s, tools like photoshop and Office used to be complex, but felt so crisp that once your learned them, it was like playing a piano. Muscle memory and keyboard shortcuts made things feel so fast. Now it…

I also like to do as much as possible via the keyboard, but that rarely works on websites anyway. They don't have to be incompatible: quite a few shortcuts in MS Word still work, even though they've change the UI model several times, and (at least in Office) they're customizable.

I agree that suggesting a contact based on digits is a very odd feature, one of the type "because we can". I can't imagine it being helpful at all, really: almost all users know how to operate the contact list.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#177

Post by jhgb »

astrobe_ wrote: post #152
antepodius wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To filter out idiots and the lazy. 'Normies'.

Snobbism aside, I would gladly give up on some "usability" for a passive web (basically raw HTML or even Gopher or Gemini) and a separate active web (basically a proper virtual machine perhaps like Squeak/Pharo). But as soon as you cut off ways to make the Web more "engaging", it makes it far less interesting for the ads market, so less contents. Even individual content producers (e.g. Youtubers, Twitchers) look for…

> and a separate active web (basically a proper virtual machine perhaps like Squeak/Pharo).

Something like WebAssembly, then?

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#178

Post by julianlam »

mjgs wrote: post #171
grenoire wrote: post #4

Regarding advertising, the article states: "Rather than being seen as a tool to enable people Japanese companies often see the web as just another advertising platform to push their message across as loudly as possible. Websites ends up being about the maximal concentration of information into the smallest space akin to a pamphlet rather than an interactive tool." I find this quite ironic, especially given how unusab…

Does anyone know if all the GDPR type laws in EU and US are causing Japanese website makers to add consent forms on their websites? That’s probably the worst usability problem with the current web, it used to be popups, now it’s constant in your face consent forms. Consent forms are really just legally enforced popups. Probably US users don’t know how bad it is because the US sites only add them to requests originati…

I don't think that's the case, if only anecdotally, as I have seen a huge uptick in these consent modals in Canada.

Most of these sites needed or wanted them implemented on the cheap. Restricting it to EU customers would require extra work...

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#179

Post by julianlam »

hrktb wrote: post #168
captainmuon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you rely too much on A/B testing it is easy though to get stuck in a local minimum defined by users' expectations... Or to build a site that generates a lot of revenue but that's not optimal for users, and when a competitor breaks out of the local minimum by changing the paradigm, all the users go there.

This is true in general, but in this specific case looking at the biggest online marketplaces (e.g. amazon, aliexpress, ...) they come from completely different places and have converged to the same kind of conclusion. There might be other paradigms looming out there, but the current situation is not just people lazily relying on A/B testing.

The same kind of conclusion? Amazon and AliExpress have wildly different design philosophies. One has pointless, hard to use coupons and mini games, and the other is Amazon.

I use AliExpress _in spite of_ their UI, not because of it.

Re: Why Japanese web design is so different (2013)

#180

Post by krapp »

ZWoz wrote: post #169
kwhitefoot wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You needn't join in. You are free to segregate yourself.

Are they? You still are in same infrastructure and legal framework. Thats like saying you are free not visiting neighbouring apartments. Their "influence" (smoke, noise) is still leaking to your space. Same with web. Like facebook negatively affecting separated web forums.

You can find another infrastructure and legal framework like Project Gemini, and I'm sure other separatist protocols will pop up in the future.
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